What is the difference between Canada and the US re: socialism

[garbon]

Pink flannel seems like it'd be more of your brother's scene.

[Valmy]

Speaking of Universties my Circuits of DOOOOM final is in seven hours.  May the slaughter begin!

In boca al lupo!

Hope it turned out okay.

Well I answered every question and felt pretty good about it.  Which probably means it was entirely wrong

I knew he loves to do diodes in parallel with capacitors and then make you graph the output voltage.  I was ready!

Now on to Power Systems.

[viper37]

Free taxi?

They used to.  Nowadays, they take the ambulance, have them drop off at the hospital... in front of 3 shopping centers.

[viper37]

There are private universities in Canada.  They are not well known for two reasons.  First, as Grumbler suggested, the main market demand for private universities in North American is filled by the Universities in the US.  Second, the endowments for the Canadian private universities are dwarved by those in the US - which leads again to the point Grumbler made.

Well, my mistake then.  I wasn't aware there were any such things.

Funding of Universities in Canada is not exclusively done by the Province.  Operational funding is partly provided by the provinces.  The rest is made up by tuition fees, donations and endowments.  Where our friends in Quebec went badly off track is that, much like the US, a lot of direct research funding comes from the Federal government.

Well, technically, there are Federal transfers, Provincial fundings, then tuition fees, going from about 1700$/term to 5500$/term or so.

a more minor point is that Viper got the Federal/Provincial jurisdiction regarding unions wrong.  All Federal Undertakings are governed by Federal labour laws and all the rest - ie everything regulated under Provincial authority, are governed under Provincial labour law.  Therefore he was wrong that there was a Federal law governing who must pay what to unions.  Where I think he got confused is that both the Feds and Provinces have adopted the same rule within their own jurisdictions.  But there is nothing preventing any Province from adopting another rule within their jurisdiction.

Not a law, a judgement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rand_formula
Even though provinces aren't technically binded by this judgement, whenever you raise the issue in court, it comes as jurisprudence and references, like this case here:
http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1910/index.do

[viper37]

A quick-and-dirty survey says that the top-end (i.e. in the top 100) public universities in the US charge and spend about $17,000 per year per undergrad student, exclusive of course of room and board and books.  I'd be interested to see what the equivalent is for Canadian universities.  I'd be willing to bet its right in the same ballpark.  I don't think that there's any question that the product is very equivalent.

It varies from province to province, and I think elsewere in Canada it also varies by discipline.

After a quick check, in Quebec, tuition costs are set at 2168$, Canada on average is over 5000$ per semester.  Universities may charge other smaller fees on top on that.
Anyhow, here's a graph on OCDE tuition costs:


McGill and the HEC both have a special MBA program for people already working, for wich they charge somewhere around 20 000$ per semester, to compete with US universities and recruit highly sought teachers&researchers.  But this is an exception, and it ain't for regular students.

[grumbler]

It varies from province to province, and I think elsewere in Canada it also varies by discipline.

After a quick check, in Quebec, tuition costs are set at 2168$, Canada on average is over 5000$ per semester.  Universities may charge other smaller fees on top on that.
Anyhow, here's a graph on OCDE tuition costs:


McGill and the HEC both have a special MBA program for people already working, for wich they charge somewhere around 20 000$ per semester, to compete with US universities and recruit highly sought teachers&researchers.  But this is an exception, and it ain't for regular students.

Your figures are just tuition, though.  I'm looking for tuition plus government subsidies per undergrad student, if such figures are available.

The numbers I gave were for combined tuition and government subsidies for the US schools, rounded to the nearest thousand dollars.

[Norgy]

I sincerely doubt either Canada or the US can be said to have any "socialism" worth mentioning, unless socialism is defined as any sort of government financing. Which is turning the whole idea upside down. Socialism in principle is state ownership of the means of production. Norway, even under the current government, would score quite highly for socialism in that respect, with owning shares in several companies, but still, it is just a player in the market. The absence of a market, and particularly prices set by the market, is a trademark of socialism. To each after his own ability and all that.

Just like pure market economies never exist, neither do socialism. After 1989, it has been rather clear the market won, and most countries can be judged on a scale of how much they let the market decide rather than a degree of socialism.

I find this discussion simply silly.

[Ed Anger]

Only a commie would say that.

[Zanza]

Your figures are just tuition, though.  I'm looking for tuition plus government subsidies per undergrad student, if such figures are available.

Maybe not exactly what you are looking for, but here are lots of numbers on spending on education (in chapter B, p. 162 onwards):
http://www.oecd.org/edu/eag2013%20(eng)--FINAL%2020%20June%202013.pdf

[grumbler]

I sincerely doubt either Canada or the US can be said to have any "socialism" worth mentioning, unless socialism is defined as any sort of government financing. Which is turning the whole idea upside down. Socialism in principle is state ownership of the means of production. Norway, even under the current government, would score quite highly for socialism in that respect, with owning shares in several companies, but still, it is just a player in the market. The absence of a market, and particularly prices set by the market, is a trademark of socialism. To each after his own ability and all that.

Just like pure market economies never exist, neither do socialism. After 1989, it has been rather clear the market won, and most countries can be judged on a scale of how much they let the market decide rather than a degree of socialism.

I find this discussion simply silly.

You have me confused.  You say "The absence of a market, and particularly prices set by the market, is a trademark of socialism.'  Okay.  So the scale is based on the role of the market.  You also argue that "I sincerely doubt either Canada or the US can be said to have any "socialism" worth mentioning," which must mean that the market is the only mechanism they possess for distributing goods and services.  But then you say that "most countries can be judged on a scale of how much they let the market decide rather than a degree of socialism" which is to say that they can be judged on the same scale which defines socialism, but can't be judged on a scale which defines socialism.  I know that's not what you meant.

if the scale is total market -> total command, with socialism being the latter, then surely degree of socialism and degree of market are just the inverse of one another on the same scale.

[crazy canuck]

That is the end of the debate then. If you are to compare apples to apples you need to compare Canadian universities with their competition in the US.  Canadian Universities have to compete with the top end of US universities since those are the institutions Canadians would leave Canada to attend.

I don't get this point.    Tertiary education is not a tournament were being at the top is the only thing that matters.  How well you're educating people on average also matters a great deal, since at the end of the day, most people go to average colleges rather than top colleges.

You right, you missed the point.  We dont have "tertiary" government funded universities (well except the UofM but it hurts BB's feelings to always make that point).  Therefore if you are going to compare apples to apples you need to compare our government funded universities to the top government funded universities in the US.

[crazy canuck]

Well, technically, there are Federal transfers, Provincial fundings, then tuition fees, going from about 1700$/term to 5500$/term or so.

You are only thinking about operating funds.  The Federal government contributes significant funds in direct research funding.  Go back and read my quote and you will see that was my point. 

Not a law, a judgement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rand_formula
Even though provinces aren't technically binded by this judgement, whenever you raise the issue in court, it comes as jurisprudence and references, like this case here:
http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1910/index.do

Exactly.  You are talking about the Rand formula.  The case arose out of an arbitration dealing with the Canada Labour Code.  If the provinces had not also incorporated the Rand forumula into Provincial legislation it would only have applied to the Canada Labour Code.

But they did.  That is where your confusion lies.  It is not federal law intruding on the jurisdiction of the Provinces to enact their own labour laws.  Everyone saw that the Rand formula made good sense and so it has been universally adopted in Canada through provincial legislation.  If you go back to my original post responding to Berkut I made the point that Canada has stronger labour labours regarding union rights.  The Rand formula - and its universal acceptance - is a good example of that.

On another note your characterization of Provincal rights in the area of labour law makes me wonder how much disinformation is circulated in the Province of Quebec to support the separatist cause.  The feds most certainly do not dicatate to the Provinces.  But I can see how it would serve the separatist cause to say it does.

[Admiral Yi]

Does Canada not have a community college system?

[crazy canuck]

Does Canada not have a community college system?

Yes, but we are talking about universities.  Under our system colleges are not universities.  Another difference with the US where the terms are interchangeable.

Again, we should compare apples to apples.

If you want to compare community colleges in our two countries go ahead.

[Maximus]

US Community Colleges are definitely not interchangeable with Universities although you're right in the sense that "going to college" can mean "going to university" here.