The Vietnam War

[Beenherebefore]

Ho joined the Communist Party when he was a student in France, IIRC.  There is no evidence I'm aware of that shows evolution in his thinking about the role of the workers' state and the party after 1945.

Norgy (change your fucking nick back): the communist parties of France and Italy had huge memberships prior to 56 and significant electoral success.

I am fully aware of that. But they were also by and large democratic, and would at best hold a minority government.

Italy I agree could have fallen to communism. France? Doubtfully. Too much right-wingedness in the, ehm, wings.

And despite all the talk about democracy, none of them would've been allowed to become communist by their allies and neighbours.

Yo, Baron, katmai, Seedy, whoever, change my nick back to Norgy, please. Yi's acting up again.

[Barrister]

Ho joined the Communist Party when he was a student in France, IIRC.  There is no evidence I'm aware of that shows evolution in his thinking about the role of the workers' state and the party after 1945.

Norgy (change your fucking nick back): the communist parties of France and Italy had huge memberships prior to 56 and significant electoral success.

I am fully aware of that. But they were also by and large democratic, and would at best hold a minority government.

Italy I agree could have fallen to communism. France? Doubtfully. Too much right-wingedness in the, ehm, wings.

And despite all the talk about democracy, none of them would've been allowed to become communist by their allies and neighbours.

Yo, Baron, katmai, Seedy, whoever, change my nick back to Norgy, please. Yi's acting up again.

Your account is still active:

http://languish.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=182

Just figure out your password, or if you can't, ask Neil about re-setting it.

[Admiral Yi]

Yi's acting up again.

Am not.

[Eddie Teach]

I would like my nick changed back too.

[Jacob]

It's likely that the US wouldn't go along with this as it was against French interests, and also because of the growing rift between Communist ideology and the non-Commies.

Oh yes, it's very unlikely it would've happened for a number of reasons... not the least of which is that it didn't happen

[Beenherebefore]

Ho joined the Communist Party when he was a student in France, IIRC.  There is no evidence I'm aware of that shows evolution in his thinking about the role of the workers' state and the party after 1945.

Norgy (change your fucking nick back): the communist parties of France and Italy had huge memberships prior to 56 and significant electoral success.

I am fully aware of that. But they were also by and large democratic, and would at best hold a minority government.

Italy I agree could have fallen to communism. France? Doubtfully. Too much right-wingedness in the, ehm, wings.

And despite all the talk about democracy, none of them would've been allowed to become communist by their allies and neighbours.

Yo, Baron, katmai, Seedy, whoever, change my nick back to Norgy, please. Yi's acting up again.

Your account is still active:

http://languish.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=182

Just figure out your password, or if you can't, ask Neil about re-setting it.

Thanks, mate.

[Jacob]

In 45-46 it was far from clear that the Communists would win in China.  Also I think Ho was enough of a pragmatist at that point that he didn't particularly care if he was a leftist dictator or a rightist one.

Yeah, that's my read too.

[alfred russel]

In 45-46 it was far from clear that the Communists would win in China.  Also I think Ho was enough of a pragmatist at that point that he didn't particularly care if he was a leftist dictator or a rightist one.

Yeah, that's my read too.

I think that is unreasonable. First, he was a long time communist that spent time in the USSR.  Second, both he and his party had ties to Chinese communists and resided in China at points. For him to become right wing probably wasn't possible for internal reasons. Third, everything about government actions after taking power indicate that they were in no way pragmatist but rather ideologically committed. 

[alfred russel]

The Vietnamese and Chinese have been enemies since forever. Their alliance was purely one of convenience, and Vietnam could easily have been allied with the US against China (or vice versa). I agree that this was politically impossible for the US to do, because of domestic politics.

Well no. I don't think the alliance between Chinese communists and Vietnamese communists can be considered an alliance of convenience, anymore than the links between Chinese nationalists and Vietnamese nationalists can be. They were natural ideological allies in the cold war world.

Also, I think it is odd to say that US couldn't ally with Ho because of "domestic politics". Only in the broadest sense is that true: to the same extent as saying the US had to go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor because of "domestic politics". Containing communists like Ho was the point of US foreign policy in the Cold War world. The moral case in the 40s and 50s was obvious--just look at Stalin. Ho was of course different, but his government was still nasty and repressive as hell. You can't ally with people like that and credibly keep the moral high ground or continue to credibly stand up to Communism.

[The Minsky Moment]

There was very little chance of Western Europe ever being taken over by communists. That's just your inner Joe McCarthy talking.

The domino theory that so brilliantly said the US must engage in Vietnam is only topped by the Soviet "let's invade Afghanistan" in its silliness as a theory for foreign policy.

The Dulles brothers never read Emmanual Todd.

[Malthus]

The Vietnamese and Chinese have been enemies since forever. Their alliance was purely one of convenience, and Vietnam could easily have been allied with the US against China (or vice versa). I agree that this was politically impossible for the US to do, because of domestic politics.

Well no. I don't think the alliance between Chinese communists and Vietnamese communists can be considered an alliance of convenience, anymore than the links between Chinese nationalists and Vietnamese nationalists can be. They were natural ideological allies in the cold war world.

The Cold War was very much still on in 1979 (hell, that was only a few years after the US pulled out of Vietnam) and yet the two contries went to war against each other: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

This was in part a reaction to the Sino-Soviet split. So much for "natural ideological allies".

Also, I think it is odd to say that US couldn't ally with Ho because of "domestic politics". Only in the broadest sense is that true: to the same extent as saying the US had to go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor because of "domestic politics". Containing communists like Ho was the point of US foreign policy in the Cold War world. The moral case in the 40s and 50s was obvious--just look at Stalin. Ho was of course different, but his government was still nasty and repressive as hell. You can't ally with people like that and credibly keep the moral high ground or continue to credibly stand up to Communism.

But the US used exactly the suggested strategy -making an ally out of (nasty, repressive) China - under Nixon. Regan, that noted Commie-fighter, continued this policy - even his liking for Taiwan wasn't allowed to stand in his way.

http://www.csmonitor.com/1981/0325/032546.html

I'm not seeing why it makes sense to suck up to China in the 1970s, and not to Vietnam (or China) in the 1950s or 60s - other than, of course, it was domestically impossible to be "soft" on communism in the 50s and 60s. The Chinese regime was plently nasty when the US was making friends with them (for example, the *reason* that China was fighting the Vietnamese in 1979 was that Vietnam had attacked China's ally, the Cambodians - a spectacularly self-genocidal regime).

Why make friends with them? The same reason the US made friends with Stalin in the 40s - great power machinations. Making friends with China helped "contain" the greater threat, the Soviet Union. It was only in the '50s and '60s that the US, again for reasons of domestic politics (and because its power was so realtively great it felt it simply did not need to play that game), lost sight of this sort of amoral, machiavellian power-politics manouvering.

[Ideologue]

You assume it made sense to suck up to PRChina, or recognize them, or not surround them with a ring of steel through which no jobs could pass.

[Malthus]

You assume it made sense to suck up to PRChina, or recognize them, or not surround them with a ring of steel through which no jobs could pass.

Who will feed North America's yellow fever if you do not allow for an endless importation of Chinese babes? 

[Eddie Teach]

You assume it made sense to suck up to PRChina, or recognize them, or not surround them with a ring of steel through which no jobs could pass.

Who will feed North America's yellow fever if you do not allow for an endless importation of Chinese babes? 

Vietnam, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, etc.

[Admiral Yi]

Vietnam, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, etc.

No offense to funky monkey but Phillipinas just don't cut it.