The new Eurosceptics

[Jacob]

It's interesting that the narrative on the anti-immigrant side has moved away from benefit scroungers/bogus asylum seekers from the 3rd world to competition for jobs and houses from Eastern Europeans.

Isn't it basically the standard "be annoyed at whatever is the most recent and visible group of immigrants and use 'common sense' to connect them to some issue that bothers people" approach? And it's just that East Europeans are the most recently visible group of immigrants, and the 'scrounger' narrative clearly doesn't fit, so they have to find some other "logical" reason to wrap up their antipathy in?

[alfred russel]

I'm kind of surprised that anyone would find it strange that Tamas is edgy about the rise of the "throw out the immigrants" party.

I've noticed that their rise has coincided with Tamas' arrival in the country. 

[Jacob]

I'm kind of surprised that anyone would find it strange that Tamas is edgy about the rise of the "throw out the immigrants" party.

I've noticed that their rise has coincided with Tamas' arrival in the country. 

It is kind of interesting to see Tamas' grappling with the political and philosophical implications of his new existence. Liberal cosmopolitanism is, of course, the outlook tailor made to his new situation, but it is antithetical to his beliefs and political inclination. It'll be interesting to see how he solves the contradiction.

[alfred russel]

It is kind of interesting to see Tamas' grappling with the political and philosophical implications of his new existence. Liberal cosmopolitanism is, of course, the outlook tailor made to his new situation, but it is antithetical to his beliefs and political inclination. It'll be interesting to see how he solves the contradiction.

I don't know...Even back when I used to post under Dorsey and was one of the more conservative members of the forum, I was rather hard line pro immigration. I haven't seen any evidence that Tamas was ever against immigration, and I don't think that is incompatible with a conservative worldview.

I suspect there are many people with such a viewpoint among the Tories.

[Gups]

It's interesting that the narrative on the anti-immigrant side has moved away from benefit scroungers/bogus asylum seekers from the 3rd world to competition for jobs and houses from Eastern Europeans.

Isn't it basically the standard "be annoyed at whatever is the most recent and visible group of immigrants and use 'common sense' to connect them to some issue that bothers people" approach? And it's just that East Europeans are the most recently visible group of immigrants, and the 'scrounger' narrative clearly doesn't fit, so they have to find some other "logical" reason to wrap up their antipathy in?

Sure but the key point is that the Government could do something or say they would do something about asylum seekers and benefit scroungers 9if they really existed). Thye can't do anything about free movement of labour within the EU.

And that's why they are getting stuffed by UKIP. The latter has a simple message which (like it or not) resonates with a significant portion of the electorate. And the Tories and Labour have no response, at all.

[Jacob]

I don't know...Even back when I used to post under Dorsey and was one of the more conservative members of the forum, I was rather hard line pro immigration. I haven't seen any evidence that Tamas was ever against immigration, and I don't think that is incompatible with a conservative worldview.

I suspect there are many people with such a viewpoint among the Tories.

I didn't mean to imply the Tamas was anti-immigration in any shape or form; it was a more general observation.

[Eddie Teach]

Why would he need to alter his outlook? Hardcore libertarianism and open borders policies go hand in hand.

[Jacob]

Sure but the key point is that the Government could do something or say they would do something about asylum seekers and benefit scroungers 9if they really existed). Thye can't do anything about free movement of labour within the EU.

And that's why they are getting stuffed by UKIP. The latter has a simple message which (like it or not) resonates with a significant portion of the electorate. And the Tories and Labour have no response, at all.

Fair point. That's how it played out in Denmark with the Danish People's Party.

[Norgy]

Well, what response would be possible?

The Progress Party went to the 2013 elections promising to throw out every gypsy beggar. Then they found out that there are treaties and stuff.

The electorate will eat up any sort of suggestion.
I hope the UKIP, the NF and the Progress Party all end up in a huge fucking plane crash with the GOP.

[garbon]

with the GOP.

[Jacob]

That would have to be a pretty big plane. Or alternately, many planes hitting each other; possibly over a convention centre.

[derspiess]

[garbon]

That would have to be a pretty big plane. Or alternately, many planes hitting each other; possibly over a convention centre.

I expect the NSA to print this thread soon.

[Jacob]

Why would he need to alter his outlook? Hardcore libertarianism and open borders policies go hand in hand.

A place like London could not come into existence or continue to function within a hardcore libertarian framework.

Like I said, I wasn't speaking about immigration but more generally. And in general, when someone moves from the place where they developed their political framework to somewhere else with very different but still relatable politics, culture, and general social expectations, to a place where they are a minority rather than part of the majority, that usually results in a slow but measurable change in their outlook.

I don't expect Tamas to come around to looking at things my way at all, but I do expect his views on things will evolve differently over the next few years compared to how they'd have changed had he stayed in Hungary.

[Maladict]

I predict the UK will still be an EU member in 2023 - celebrating half a century of EU membership. 

...while still whining about it.