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The 20th century’s 10 deadliest battles

Started by Brazen, February 27, 2014, 06:07:41 AM

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Monoriu

But it explicitly says that
QuoteArmy-technology.com lists the ten worst military disasters in the 20th century based on the reported casualties

if that is the only criterion, then the list seems off to me. 

grumbler

Quote from: Brazen on February 27, 2014, 06:23:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 27, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
The Sino-Japanese war from 1937-45 is not covered?  The no. of casualties is in the millions.
The list is individual battles, not wars.
Bad, bad list.  Sometimes it lists battles, and sometimes offensives (like Tet, which included a number of battles).  Sometimes (like Tet) it includes civilian casualties, and sometimes it doesn't.  It seems more like a list drawn up by someone who didn't know the facts, and then some selective figure-quoting to make the numbers come out right.  I find the claim that the Soviets lost almost twice as many men as the Germans during Bagration to be laugh-out-loud bullshit.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

jimmy olsen

Quote from: grumbler on February 27, 2014, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: Brazen on February 27, 2014, 06:23:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 27, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
The Sino-Japanese war from 1937-45 is not covered?  The no. of casualties is in the millions.
The list is individual battles, not wars.
I find the claim that the Soviets lost almost twice as many men as the Germans during Bagration to be laugh-out-loud bullshit.
If we go by killed and captured/missing, then that would be right according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

Germans 180,040 killed and missing
Soviet sources:[7]
381,000 killed
158,480 captured
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
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Malthus

If based on casualties, the list is obviously bizzare. You could fit a Six Day Wars' worth of casualties into the Eastern Front of WW2 and it would not even be a footnote.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

derspiess

Even in their victories the Soviets suffered horrendous casualties-- I don't see it being too hard to believe that they lost nearly twice as many as the Krauts did in Bagration.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

grumbler

Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 27, 2014, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 27, 2014, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: Brazen on February 27, 2014, 06:23:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 27, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
The Sino-Japanese war from 1937-45 is not covered?  The no. of casualties is in the millions.
The list is individual battles, not wars.
I find the claim that the Soviets lost almost twice as many men as the Germans during Bagration to be laugh-out-loud bullshit.
If we go by killed and captured/missing, then that would be right according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

Germans 180,040 killed and missing
Soviet sources:[7]
381,000 killed
158,480 captured

First of all, you are talking about Wikipedia, so those numbers certainly are not reliable (the "Soviet Sources" consists of a single historian on a TV show in 2009 - what was "Soviet' about him, and why is he referred to in the plural?  To get more cred? And why does the cited source never present the numbers indicated?  All that source claims is that German losses exceeded 500,000).  Second, losses don't include just killed and missing.  Third, you have reversed the numbers:  the wiki article you cite has the 381,000 killed on the German side, not the Soviet!
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Brazen

I suspect a lot of Wiki may have been involved in this one :hmm:

I'm seldom called upon to visit military history in my articles, but if I did I'd be sure not to offer it up to the Languish vultures  :lol:

Ed Anger

Top Ten Spartan Latrines:

10 the trench Sans Testicles dug at Cornith, 407 BC

Etc. etc.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Brazen


Ed Anger

Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

grumbler

Quote from: Brazen on February 27, 2014, 10:04:43 AM
I suspect a lot of Wiki may have been involved in this one :hmm:

I'm seldom called upon to visit military history in my articles, but if I did I'd be sure not to offer it up to the Languish vultures  :lol:
Offer it up for editing here.  The vultures would then be good for your final product.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

11B4V

Quote from: grumbler on February 27, 2014, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: Brazen on February 27, 2014, 06:23:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 27, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
The Sino-Japanese war from 1937-45 is not covered?  The no. of casualties is in the millions.
The list is individual battles, not wars.
Bad, bad list.  Sometimes it lists battles, and sometimes offensives (like Tet, which included a number of battles).  Sometimes (like Tet) it includes civilian casualties, and sometimes it doesn't.  It seems more like a list drawn up by someone who didn't know the facts, and then some selective figure-quoting to make the numbers come out right.  I find the claim that the Soviets lost almost twice as many men as the Germans during Bagration to be laugh-out-loud bullshit.

770,888 according to G.F. Krivosheev for the Russians.

180,040 KIA/MIA
590,848 WIA
"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

jimmy olsen

Quote from: grumbler on February 27, 2014, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 27, 2014, 08:05:32 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 27, 2014, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: Brazen on February 27, 2014, 06:23:40 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 27, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
The Sino-Japanese war from 1937-45 is not covered?  The no. of casualties is in the millions.
The list is individual battles, not wars.
I find the claim that the Soviets lost almost twice as many men as the Germans during Bagration to be laugh-out-loud bullshit.
If we go by killed and captured/missing, then that would be right according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

Germans 180,040 killed and missing
Soviet sources:[7]
381,000 killed
158,480 captured

First of all, you are talking about Wikipedia, so those numbers certainly are not reliable (the "Soviet Sources" consists of a single historian on a TV show in 2009 - what was "Soviet' about him, and why is he referred to in the plural?  To get more cred? And why does the cited source never present the numbers indicated?  All that source claims is that German losses exceeded 500,000).  Second, losses don't include just killed and missing.  Third, you have reversed the numbers:  the wiki article you cite has the 381,000 killed on the German side, not the Soviet!
You are completely correct. I just assumed that as per stereotype the larger number was the Soviet casualties. :blush:
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

grumbler

Quote from: 11B4V on February 27, 2014, 10:56:05 AM
770,888 according to G.F. Krivosheev for the Russians.

180,040 KIA/MIA
590,848 WIA

Krivosheev includes non-combat "casualties" such as frostbite victims and anyone else who reports to a doctor for treatment for anything.   Nothing wrong with that (it is just another methodology) but we'd need comparable German numbers in order to conclude that the Soviets lost twice as many men in Bagration as the Germans.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Neil

I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.