Possible California ballot iniative to raise the minimum wage to $10, then $12

[Admiral Yi]

Maybe subhuman is too loaded.  Are their basic needs (e.g., shelter) critically dependent upon others (e.g., roommates)?  Then that's not a living wage.

Subhuman is too loaded but living is not?

"Living wage" is obfuscation, it's doublespeak. 

[DontSayBanana]

Some states used* to allow employers to pay less than minimum wage if they earn tips, as long as the tips get them to the minimum wage level.  I made $2.09/hour in a restaurant in the early '90s, which was about half of minimum wage at the time.

*They still might, not sure.

Tip credit's still a thing.  Some of the NJ businesses have been griping about getting the tip credit percentage lowered since the minimum wage went up- as it stands, the minimum tip credit is $4-something right now.  I've been led to believe that not paying the difference on tip credit is one of the bigger things restaurants get in trouble for.

[alfred russel]

Too much politics over the minimum wage. A very small percentage of people work at min wage, and only a small percentage of those are older than early twenties. Min wage is a starter wage, or for someone retired. If someone is working min wage as long term then they're doing something very wrong. Most of the companies being bashed, department stores like Wal Mart, etc, already pay over the min wage anyways. As I said, this is mainly for politics, for pols to make noise and look like they care.

IMO, the min wage should be tied to the inflation rate or cost of living and rise accordingly.

Do you think the minimum wage, even as a starter wage, is a living wage?

Without getting into a debate of what is a living wage, I think that the theoretical free market rate for truly unskilled labor is less than what is needed to pay for adequate food, shelter, child and education expenses, plus other expenses to stay connected to the wider world (television, phone, I would argue computer and internet, etc).

The public policy question is how to best ensure that people can meet those needs. One way is to raise the minimum wage to a level that would allow someone on minimum wage to live a reasonably comfortable lifestyle without state support. The problem with this approach is that it results in higher unemployment, more difficulty in finding entry level jobs, and a somewhat permanent welfare state with persistent unemployed.

An alternative, which we have and I think is much better, is to set the minimum wage at a lower level, and have state support for the working poor. There is an argument that minimum wage paying employers are effectively receiving a state subsidy for their workers that would not be able to subsist on their wages without the benefit programs. I generally don't agree with that, fwiw.

[fhdz]

Maybe subhuman is too loaded.  Are their basic needs (e.g., shelter) critically dependent upon others (e.g., roommates)?  Then that's not a living wage.

Subhuman is too loaded but living is not?

"Living wage" is obfuscation, it's doublespeak.

What else do you call a wage which would permit you to live - not like a king, but just in normal housing - without *needing* either a second income, roommates, or lots of government assistance?

[Admiral Yi]

"Enough money to live on your own."

Or we could just cut through the fog and call it $20,800.  Everyone knows what that means.

[CountDeMoney]

The Yi types think living in a cardboard box or a shelter is "living on your own", too.

[fhdz]

"Enough money to live on your own."

You say potato, I say living wage.

[Admiral Yi]

Potato has the advantage of being honest.

[11B4V]

Potato has the advantage of being honest.

[Razgovory]

The Yi types think living in a cardboard box or a shelter is "living on your own", too.

Still has the free rider problem.  All cardboard boxes should be incinerated after use so as not disincentive people into working for enough money for shanties.

[Neil]

Potato has the advantage of being honest.

Both are honest, so long as we understand what they mean.

[Berkut]

I like statistics that use "the federal minimum wage or less," rather than the extremely common jobs that pay a buck or so above minimum wage, a phenomenon which exists in some small part, if not almost entirely, because the minwage sets an absolute minimum from which employees and employers negotiate upward.  We should also completely discount the economic effect of psychology regarding that wage floor--i.e., even the shittiest employer usually doesn't want to make their employee feel like a complete worthless subhuman, and the prospective employee can be assumed to have a measure of pride, so wages directly pegged to the minimum are comparatively rare.

Yep. "Only x%" actually earn minimum wage is no argument. Being seen to only pay the minimum you are legally required to pay is bad PR, thus raise the minimum and a lot of low earners will see their wages go up eventualy.

Christ, so you guys bitch and bitch and bitch about minimum wage, and then someone actually shows actual data that completely crushes your arguments about minimum wage, so the response is to claim that people don't really pay the minimum wage, so all your argument now apply to people making minimum + $.01/hour?

Which, of course, is safely impossible to quantify. And if someone did, and scuppered THAT argument with actual data, you would just move the bar to minimum +$.02/hour.

This is faith based thinking. The data must be ignored if it doesn't support your conclusion.

[Ideologue]

Berk: if the notion is to raise the minwage to $10 (or $12) an hour, then the statistics that matter are "jobs that pay lower than $10 (or $12) an hour."  If you don't believe that is the case, I believe the onus is on you to explain why that is.

Anyway, I think it'd be a positive development if the new floor from which people may negotiate upward and only upward were in fact a floor and not a parent's basement.  Certainly you would see less negotiation.  But that is A-OK.

[Razgovory]

Berkut's projecting again.  He's having a crisis of faith on free market fundamentalism.


I do kind of wonder what the lowest wages paid would be if there was no minimum wage.

[Razgovory]

Oh, and someone tell Berkut to clean up the the pictures of dicks that grallon posted in the Skyrim thread in the game forum.  He's the mod there right?  He won't listen to me, but someone should get his attention on that.