What was in that grog? Scientists analyze ancient Nordic drink

[Valmy]

Even with the hops, it's almost guaranteed to be a near-undrinkable novelty beer, fit for one purchase per interested customer (and those people pretty much know who they are at this point, since there's been a few ancient ales released, not to mention mead), so they might as well not have blown the historical verisimilitude so drastically.

Having made several batches of historical meads from 13th century recipes, I'm going to respectfully disagree. Though I didn't use well water, I did use period methods and as period ingredients as I could get. The results, while pretty sharp by today's standards as they didn't age their meads then like we do now, was still pretty tasty.

Well yeah with that decadent 13th century stuff.  We are talking 16th century BC people, they drank fermented bear piss and liked it.

[derspiess]

I was very interested in the North American reproduction until they said they'd added gratuitous  hops.

This.  I normally like Dogfish Head, too.

Chances are you wouldn't notice any hops if you tried it.  10 IBU is practically nothing.

[grumbler]

I was very interested in the North American reproduction until they said they'd added gratuitous  hops.

This.  I normally like Dogfish Head, too.

Chances are you wouldn't notice any hops if you tried it.  10 IBU is practically nothing.

Which, again, is an excellent reason not to add any hops at all, and retain authenticity (such as it is).

[derspiess]

Which, again, is an excellent reason not to add any hops at all, and retain authenticity (such as it is).

I said DSB probably wouldn't notice it.  Apparently their brewmaster felt that he needed to throw in a handful of hops to make it drinkable.  I'd trust his judgment on that.

I'd say a handful of hops is going to matter a lot less in terms of authenticity than the water chemistry.  I wonder if they did anything to try & replicate the water from back whenever 

[DGuller]

I was very interested in the North American reproduction until they said they'd added gratuitous  hops.

Every culture has its own mating rituals.

[grumbler]

I said DSB probably wouldn't notice it.  Apparently their brewmaster felt that he needed to throw in a handful of hops to make it drinkable.  I'd trust his judgment on that.

How could they not know that they were making an undrinkable beverage before they started?  If it was undrinkable, why make it?  If you are not going to make it authentic, then why bother making it at all?  I mean, as soon as people discover that it is a "Disney" version of the real drink, they lose interest, and the market was small as is.

I'd say a handful of hops is going to matter a lot less in terms of authenticity than the water chemistry.  I wonder if they did anything to try & replicate the water from back whenever 

I'd say that water quality varied considerably from place to place in the ancient world, just as it does in the modern.  There would have been places with fairly pure water back then, and an authentic reproduction of their beverages would reflect those from a place like that.  Water has been just H2O for more than 3500 years.

[derspiess]

How could they not know that they were making an undrinkable beverage before they started?

Because nobody there had tried it yet?   

If it was undrinkable, why make it?

Brewers experiment with new (or really old) ideas all the time.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

If you are not going to make it authentic, then why bother making it at all?  I mean, as soon as people discover that it is a "Disney" version of the real drink, they lose interest, and the market was small as is.

I think you're getting a little nitpicky here.  Craft brewers release limited editions or experimental beers all the time.  Remember their market is beer geeks, not necessarily history geeks.  I haven't tried this one, but some people like it, some hate it.  Overall it seems to be rated favorably on ratebeer.com and beeradvocate.com

I'd say that water quality varied considerably from place to place in the ancient world, just as it does in the modern.  There would have been places with fairly pure water back then, and an authentic reproduction of their beverages would reflect those from a place like that.  Water has been just H2O for more than 3500 years.

My smiley at the end aside, what I was saying is that the water chemistry (specifically, levels of calcium, sulphate, magnesium, sodium, chloride, and carbonate) can have a big impact on how a beer tastes.  You could hold 100% true to that ancient recipe and still have it taste differently than it did back in the day due to water chemistry.  And that could throw things off for a batch of beer more than a minuscule amount of hops would.

[grumbler]

Because nobody there had tried it yet?

I thought that we were trusting the brewmaster.

Brewers experiment with new (or really old) ideas all the time.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I am talking about what Dogfish Head making a commercial beer, not some experiment.  Making a commercial beer requires investment.  If you are throwing away the only real selling point for the beer, then why make the investment?

I think you're getting a little nitpicky here.  Craft brewers release limited editions or experimental beers all the time.  Remember their market is beer geeks, not necessarily history geeks.  I haven't tried this one, but some people like it, some hate it.  Overall it seems to be rated favorably on ratebeer.com and beeradvocate.com

I think that you are evading the question here.  Craft brewers release limited edition/experimental beers all the time, but this beverage is not a craft brewer's experiment with beer, it is a "re-creation" that has been deliberately turned into a unauthentic re-creation.  That's not really an experimental beer at all.  The question is why would Doghead make it, knowing that they can't really get away with claiming that it is authentic.  Beer aficionados, as DH knows well, care about even tiny additions to any "classic" formula.

My smiley at the end aside, what I was saying is that the water chemistry (specifically, levels of calcium, sulphate, magnesium, sodium, chloride, and carbonate) can have a big impact on how a beer tastes.  You could hold 100% true to that ancient recipe and still have it taste differently than it did back in the day due to water chemistry.  And that could throw things off for a batch of beer more than a minuscule amount of hops would.

I understand how water can change the taste of beer (as well as other beverages made from water).  What you need to understand is that water chemistry varied in the ancient world.  No two batches of "grog" made in 1500 BCE would taste the same, especially iof they were made in different locations.  The DH water is likely going to match someone's water, somewhere, and so potentially match that specific batch of grog (except that they deliberately depart from the authentic formula).

[derspiess]

I thought that we were trusting the brewmaster.

Yeah.  Point?

I am talking about what Dogfish Head making a commercial beer, not some experiment.  Making a commercial beer requires investment.  If you are throwing away the only real selling point for the beer, then why make the investment?

I think you lost me.  Experimental beers and 'commercial' beers are not mutually exclusive.  I'm not sure what unique investment they'd be making beyond the myriad of other special release beers they brew or have brewed.   

I think that you are evading the question here.

No.  It's more likely we're just not on the same page.

Craft brewers release limited edition/experimental beers all the time, but this beverage is not a craft brewer's experiment with beer, it is a "re-creation" that has been deliberately turned into a unauthentic re-creation.  That's not really an experimental beer at all.

It sure is.  Nobody knows the exact recipe.  They just have an idea of what different ingredients may have been used.  I'm sure the brewer experimented with different measures in very small batches before they came up with their recipe for the production run.  Just like they do with any other new beer they make.  And at some point they decided to add a small amount of hops. 

The question is why would Doghead make it, knowing that they can't really get away with claiming that it is authentic.  Beer aficionados, as DH knows well, care about even tiny additions to any "classic" formula.

None of the tasters' notes I saw mention anything about the hops or the fact that there was a tiny deviation from what is thought to have been the original recipe.  So I don't think any beer geeks are bothered by the fact that hops were included.  The negative comments seem to be that it's a bit too sweet/fruity, in fact.

But if you're really that vexed and curious as to why they made it, email them at [email protected] or hit them up on twitter at @dogfishbeer.  Or just keep bitching about it here. 

FWIW, I'd probably try it out if it were less than $10 for a 22 oz bomber of it.  But $13.99?  Not interested enough.

I understand how water can change the taste of beer (as well as other beverages made from water).  What you need to understand is that water chemistry varied in the ancient world.  No two batches of "grog" made in 1500 BCE would taste the same, especially iof they were made in different locations.  The DH water is likely going to match someone's water, somewhere, and so potentially match that specific batch of grog (except that they deliberately depart from the authentic formula).

It's possible, but not likely. 

[derspiess]

They may make your head spin a few times, g:  http://www.dogfish.com/brews-spirits/the-brews/occasional-rarities/index.htm

They have a whole "Ancient Ale" series with gimmicky "based on analysis of dust scraped off such & such drinking vessel" beers.  One-- Midas Touch-- was popular enough to be made into a year-round ale. 

[garbon]

I will say personally, and not a beer aficionado, that I thought their historical ales seemed interesting until I realized that they just modified the recipes as they saw fit.

[crazy canuck]

they just modified the recipes as they saw fit.

From the article in the OP, it sounds like something brewmasters have always done.

[derspiess]

I wasn't ever interested in them either way.  Gimmicky beers don't tend to draw me in, and I would imagine most painstakingly recreated historical brews would taste kind of nasty compared to what we drink these days. 

[garbon]

they just modified the recipes as they saw fit.

From the article in the OP, it sounds like something brewmasters have always done.

Modified? Sure. Modified with modern ingredients while be mentioned as recreations?

[derspiess]

Semi-related and I haven't had it in ages, but Flag Porter is made from yeast* salvaged from sealed ale bottles aboard an 1825 shipwreck (I think they originally called it Shipwreck ale) and brewed according to an 1850 Porter recipe.  It was tasty stuff.


*they found live yeast cells in the bottles and cultured the strain under sterile conditions to make more of it