Vikings TV Series

[Malthus]

There is one thing I do wonder, and that's how literate the Vikings were.

What is your impression?

Going by the number and quality of runic instriptions on stone that have come down to us a significant number of people could read and write. It is likely that the vast majority of runic inscriptions were made on perishable materials and haven't survived. IIRC they have found huge numbers of runic inscriptions on leather etc dealing with everyday stuff when excavating Bergen, Norway, but I think those are medieval. My guess is that the process from magical, ritual runes to everyday "pick up a gallon of blueberries on your way home from rape honey" was a gradual one.

There aren't a lot of references to documents or stores of documents, so not very literate.  I've been reading about the Carolingian period and found an interesting claim.  There are more surviving documents from that period then the entire 1,300 years previous.

The problem is determining what is an artifact of survival and what is the result of a lack of literacy.

Stuff written on perishable materials doesn't last long in a damp climate unless it is carefully tended and re-copied periodically. Break that chain because of some sort of social change or collapse, and much or most of it is lost very quickly.

To give an example, we suspect that Rome had very extensive written records dealing with the bureaucracy of Empire, but much of it has dissappeared, as it was of limited interest to anyone. For example, the only written reference that exists to Pontus Pilate, outside of the Bible, is a dedication carved in marble on a colleseum - even though as provincial governor, he must have generated tons of paperwork and been mentioned in tons more. All has gone.

In the case of the Vikings, pre-Christian writings would have been of limited interest in the medieval period, and so disappeared. It is notable that the survival of Norse Mythology is almost entirely due to one single guy - Snorri Sturluson, who compiled the "Prose Edda".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda

The reason he wrote it? Essentally, as part of his resume - he was trying (unsuccessfully) to get hired by the King of Norway as court poet; but this old stuff had fallen out of fashion and the Norweigian Court was more interested in "modern" poetry not dealing with pre-Christian myths. Snorri couldn't get a break ... he was the CdM of his day. 

[Razgovory]

There is one thing I do wonder, and that's how literate the Vikings were.

What is your impression?

Going by the number and quality of runic instriptions on stone that have come down to us a significant number of people could read and write. It is likely that the vast majority of runic inscriptions were made on perishable materials and haven't survived. IIRC they have found huge numbers of runic inscriptions on leather etc dealing with everyday stuff when excavating Bergen, Norway, but I think those are medieval. My guess is that the process from magical, ritual runes to everyday "pick up a gallon of blueberries on your way home from rape honey" was a gradual one.

There aren't a lot of references to documents or stores of documents, so not very literate.  I've been reading about the Carolingian period and found an interesting claim.  There are more surviving documents from that period then the entire 1,300 years previous.

The problem is determining what is an artifact of survival and what is the result of a lack of literacy.

Stuff written on perishable materials doesn't last long in a damp climate unless it is carefully tended and re-copied periodically. Break that chain because of some sort of social change or collapse, and much or most of it is lost very quickly.

To give an example, we suspect that Rome had very extensive written records dealing with the bureaucracy of Empire, but much of it has dissappeared, as it was of limited interest to anyone. For example, the only written reference that exists to Pontus Pilate, outside of the Bible, is a dedication carved in marble on a colleseum - even though as provincial governor, he must have generated tons of paperwork and been mentioned in tons more. All has gone.

In the case of the Vikings, pre-Christian writings would have been of limited interest in the medieval period, and so disappeared. It is notable that the survival of Norse Mythology is almost entirely due to one single guy - Snorri Sturluson, who compiled the "Prose Edda".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda

The reason he wrote it? Essentally, as part of his resume - he was trying (unsuccessfully) to get hired by the King of Norway as court poet; but this old stuff had fallen out of fashion and the Norweigian Court was more interested in "modern" poetry not dealing with pre-Christian myths. Snorri couldn't get a break ... he was the CdM of his day. 

The Carolingian lived in the same climate and same time period, yet they have lots of documents.  The Vikings also don't seem to be a society that would have lots of documents around.  They lacked strong centralized states, or many urban areas.  These aren't the types of societies that keep lots of documents.

[Queequeg]

Why wouldn't the Vikings keep trading records?  Also, even though they lacked centralized government, they seem to have had pretty complex political systems that were, if anything, more Byzantine for their lack of direct autocracy. 

[The Brain]

There is one thing I do wonder, and that's how literate the Vikings were.

What is your impression?

Going by the number and quality of runic instriptions on stone that have come down to us a significant number of people could read and write. It is likely that the vast majority of runic inscriptions were made on perishable materials and haven't survived. IIRC they have found huge numbers of runic inscriptions on leather etc dealing with everyday stuff when excavating Bergen, Norway, but I think those are medieval. My guess is that the process from magical, ritual runes to everyday "pick up a gallon of blueberries on your way home from rape honey" was a gradual one.

There aren't a lot of references to documents or stores of documents, so not very literate.  I've been reading about the Carolingian period and found an interesting claim.  There are more surviving documents from that period then the entire 1,300 years previous.

The problem is determining what is an artifact of survival and what is the result of a lack of literacy.

Stuff written on perishable materials doesn't last long in a damp climate unless it is carefully tended and re-copied periodically. Break that chain because of some sort of social change or collapse, and much or most of it is lost very quickly.

To give an example, we suspect that Rome had very extensive written records dealing with the bureaucracy of Empire, but much of it has dissappeared, as it was of limited interest to anyone. For example, the only written reference that exists to Pontus Pilate, outside of the Bible, is a dedication carved in marble on a colleseum - even though as provincial governor, he must have generated tons of paperwork and been mentioned in tons more. All has gone.

In the case of the Vikings, pre-Christian writings would have been of limited interest in the medieval period, and so disappeared. It is notable that the survival of Norse Mythology is almost entirely due to one single guy - Snorri Sturluson, who compiled the "Prose Edda".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda

The reason he wrote it? Essentally, as part of his resume - he was trying (unsuccessfully) to get hired by the King of Norway as court poet; but this old stuff had fallen out of fashion and the Norweigian Court was more interested in "modern" poetry not dealing with pre-Christian myths. Snorri couldn't get a break ... he was the CdM of his day. 

The Carolingian lived in the same climate and same time period, yet they have lots of documents.  The Vikings also don't seem to be a society that would have lots of documents around.  They lacked strong centralized states, or many urban areas.  These aren't the types of societies that keep lots of documents.

Which definition of literate do you use?

I don't think Viking society was based on the written word.

[The Brain]

Why wouldn't the Vikings keep trading records?  Also, even though they lacked centralized government, they seem to have had pretty complex political systems that were, if anything, more Byzantine for their lack of direct autocracy.

I wouldn't call the political system complex.

[Malthus]

The Carolingian lived in the same climate and same time period, yet they have lots of documents.  The Vikings also don't seem to be a society that would have lots of documents around.  They lacked strong centralized states, or many urban areas.  These aren't the types of societies that keep lots of documents.

The issue is whether people in later ages cared about the documents. The Holy Roman Empire derived its legitimacy from the Carolingian period, so people in later ages kept their records carefully, particularly in the monestaries that sprang up. People in the northern lands, once converted to Christianity, were less interested in records of the pagan past. Some survived but most did not. This is particularlyb true as the whole system of writing changed - from runes to a recognizable alphabet based on Latin. People in the same lands were now of a different religion and unable to even read stuff written by their predecessors.

Which is not to say that the vikings had as many documents as the Carolingians, just that you can't read too much into what has survived. It isn't always a reliable measure of what once existed. 

[Viking]

Why wouldn't the Vikings keep trading records?  Also, even though they lacked centralized government, they seem to have had pretty complex political systems that were, if anything, more Byzantine for their lack of direct autocracy.

The vikings did not keep records since they were for the most part pagan pirates who considered honour and personal connections most important. The viking age is in the 9th and 10th centuries where individual pirates graduate to pirate kings to forming piracy coalitions which then eventually return home to form kingdoms like the ones they found in europe.

It's not until christianity that any literature is written down. It's not until about 1000 AD that the first scandinavian kingdoms go christian and still further until they get clerical infrastructure.

The texts we have are not primary sources. The are secondary sources. They were for the most part written in the 13th century about events that had happened 200-400 years earlier.

The complex political system was basically a meeting. The only office was a the law speaker (a guy who remembered the law, and often made it up on the spot). The mafia didn't keep records, neither did the vikings.

[The Brain]

It's not until christianity that any literature is written down.

Except of course the literature that was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B6k_Runestone

[Malthus]

Why wouldn't the Vikings keep trading records?  Also, even though they lacked centralized government, they seem to have had pretty complex political systems that were, if anything, more Byzantine for their lack of direct autocracy.

The vikings did not keep records since they were for the most part pagan pirates who considered honour and personal connections most important. The viking age is in the 9th and 10th centuries where individual pirates graduate to pirate kings to forming piracy coalitions which then eventually return home to form kingdoms like the ones they found in europe.

It's not until christianity that any literature is written down. It's not until about 1000 AD that the first scandinavian kingdoms go christian and still further until they get clerical infrastructure.

The texts we have are not primary sources. The are secondary sources. They were for the most part written in the 13th century about events that had happened 200-400 years earlier.

The complex political system was basically a meeting. The only office was a the law speaker (a guy who remembered the law, and often made it up on the spot). The mafia didn't keep records, neither did the vikings.

The reasonably wide-spread practice of carving rune-stones only makes sense if there was at least some literacy extant. They appear to have been raised in some cases by vikings- to commemmorate those who didn't return from voyages, fir example. Many are Christian, but the practice pre-dates Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestone

Obviouly, stones are more likely to survive than stuff written on more perishable materials such as wood.

[The Brain]

To elaborate, a document like the Rök runestone (see above) isn't produced in a vacuum. The author was comfortable around advanced writing, he had likely read and written quite a lot. Which form did the literature he knew take? How long texts were written on perishable materials? We don't know. As I've said earlier, my impression is that literature wasn't an extremely important part of Viking society when compared to oral material. But it was definitely there.

To me the Rök runestone is the coolest known surviving artifact of the Viking age.

[Queequeg]

Brain, what's the relationship between Goths and Geats? 

[Syt]

Brain, what's the relationship between Goths and Geats?

Roughly the same as Geths and Goats.

[Queequeg]

Brain, what's the relationship between Goths and Geats?

Roughly the same as Geths and Goats.

[The Brain]

Brain, what's the relationship between Goths and Geats?

I don't know how much you've read about this question. The old view of course is that they are the same and glorious proto-Swedes conquered Rome itself back in the day. It's been years since I read about the Goths, but IIRC they may have started out somewhere around Poland and there may or may not have been a memory of having come from across the Baltic. It may be as simple as the words Goths/Geats/göter/Götaland/Gotland etc have the same basic root but do not otherwise indicate kinship.

Worth remembering is that people from present day Sweden travelled to the Late Roman Empire and served as mercenaries. So there were likely Geats among the Goths, if you will.

[Queequeg]

That makes sense.  These names get reused and thrown around.