Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Valmy]

Meh. The real issue with NATO is that we just don't give a fuck about our brothers out East.

Are you sure?  I mean Europe already fought two World Wars over Serbia and Poland.

[Iormlund]

And neither one turned out that well.

I very much doubt we'd do anything even if the Baltics were invaded. I'm pretty sure we'll stand by as Ukraine is raped.

[Valmy]

And neither one turned out that well.

I very much doubt we'd do anything even if the Baltics were invaded. I'm pretty sure we'll stand by as Ukraine is raped.

Latvia's 13 infantry battalions stand at the ready.

[alfred russel]

That isn't the point though - the point is that they won even though they were massively outspent. They were closer to the fight, they cared more, and the US didn't care enough to press our material advantage to its conclusion. Those are all VERY relevant issues when it comes to looking at NATO's guarantee of Eastern European nations sovereignty.

They weren't massively outspent at the point of victory. Not to mention that the USSR and China both heavily supported North Vietnam during periods, that calls into question the math of just how much outspent the North Vietnamese really were.

True enough. Is NATO willing to start a nuclear war that would result in killing a hundred  hundreds million Americans and Europeans to protect Latvia?

The weapons should deter any rational use of nuclear weapons by the Russians. Which leaves the Russians with trying to win with conventional forces that are inferior in every way.

...except from Russia. It would be NATO having problems getting troops into the Baltics, not Russia. Look at a map.

The maps I look at show that the Baltics have a land border with Poland. I'm not sure where this trouble would come from.

[mongers]

The maps I look at show that the Baltics have a land border with Poland. I'm not sure where this trouble would come from.

There's like one road from Poland to the Baltics, all the Russians have to do is drive from Belarus into Lithuania via Vilnius and in total is something like a 80-100 drive to link up with territory in Kaliningrad.

[alfred russel]

The maps I look at show that the Baltics have a land border with Poland. I'm not sure where this trouble would come from.

There's like one road from Poland to the Baltics, all the Russians have to do is drive from Belarus into Lithuania via Vilnius and in total is something like a 80-100 drive to link up with territory in Kaliningrad.

Considering that NATO should have air superiority, I'd feel more comfortable making the trip to Lithuania via the one road from Poland rather than the larger borders with Russia.

[Sheilbh]

I feel like a big factor is we have blown a massive fuckton of goodwill and political capital with this War on Terror thing, especially to the Euros.  I hope it is all worth it.

In fairness the Eastern Europeans did participate a lot (as did a few other NATO nations) but all the while the Slovaks and the Poles and the Balts were constantly saying 'this is fine but it's not really what NATO's for which is protecting Europe from Russia and we should be doing more on that'. They just weren't listened to or important enough.

Also it is hard to make too big of a fuss over Ukraine after our massive fuckup by recognizing Kosovo.  Sometimes I just do not know what we are thinking.

I don't see the similarity.

[Razgovory]

I feel like a big factor is we have blown a massive fuckton of goodwill and political capital with this War on Terror thing, especially to the Euros.  I hope it is all worth it.

Also it is hard to make too big of a fuss over Ukraine after our massive fuckup by recognizing Kosovo.  Sometimes I just do not know what we are thinking.

Meh. The real issue with NATO is that we just don't give a fuck about our brothers out East.

It's sad really.  The US was willing to sacrifice for their brothers in the east.  Hell, quite a few people died in the Berlin Airlift.  It seems our European friends lack the same selflessness.

[Sheilbh]

It's sad really.  The US was willing to sacrifice for their brothers in the east.  Hell, quite a few people died in the Berlin Airlift.  It seems our European friends lack the same selflessness.

'Brothers in the east'? Christ

But that was a different time. At that point Britain was reintroducing rationing so we could feed the population of the British section of Germany, the UK had already been running an airlift and fully participated. No one else could.

You're projecting that onto now. The polls I've seen show the American public - like most Europeans - are extremely dubious about getting involved in Ukraine and don't think it's their fight. It could be that would change if it were, say, Latvia but that'd be equally true of Europeans - I actually think the mood would shift quickly.

But this is really a policy choice of perhaps establishing a more permanent presence in Eastern Europe as we have in the past in Germany and in the recent past in Afghanistan.

[Ed Anger]

Fuck Europe. America First!

[Razgovory]

The maps I look at show that the Baltics have a land border with Poland. I'm not sure where this trouble would come from.

There's like one road from Poland to the Baltics, all the Russians have to do is drive from Belarus into Lithuania via Vilnius and in total is something like a 80-100 drive to link up with territory in Kaliningrad.

Considering that NATO should have air superiority, I'd feel more comfortable making the trip to Lithuania via the one road from Poland rather than the larger borders with Russia.

The question is not can NATO beat Russia.  Yeah, they can.  They are just not positioned to protect the Baltic right now.  We move two (US) armored brigades to the Baltics and they will be able to repel anything the Russians throw at them for at least six months.

[Ed Anger]

Needs more white on black counters.

[Razgovory]

It's sad really.  The US was willing to sacrifice for their brothers in the east.  Hell, quite a few people died in the Berlin Airlift.  It seems our European friends lack the same selflessness.

'Brothers in the east'? Christ

But that was a different time. At that point Britain was reintroducing rationing so we could feed the population of the British section of Germany, the UK had already been running an airlift and fully participated. No one else could.

You're projecting that onto now. The polls I've seen show the American public - like most Europeans - are extremely dubious about getting involved in Ukraine and don't think it's their fight. It could be that would change if it were, say, Latvia but that'd be equally true of Europeans - I actually think the mood would shift quickly.

But this is really a policy choice of perhaps establishing a more permanent presence in Eastern Europe as we have in the past in Germany and in the recent past in Afghanistan.

Brothers in the East was Iormland's term.  And yeah, that was a different time.  We in the US were willing to risk lives stop Russian aggression.  We willing to fight over Berlin which was a lot further away from the US then it was Britain.  Lots of folks didn't think it was our fight to protect Western Europe then either.  Strictly speaking, it wasn't our fight.  It was defending allies who were very far away.  The US is still devoted to defending it's allies be it in Taiwan or South Korea or in Europe.  I get the feeling that our European allies are only willing to defend Western Europe.  So long as Russian aggression is confined to the East, it seems Western Europe doesn't give a fuck.

[dps]

Brothers in the East was Iormland's term.  And yeah, that was a different time.  We in the US were willing to risk lives stop Russian aggression.  We willing to fight over Berlin which was a lot further away from the US then it was Britain.  Lots of folks didn't think it was our fight to protect Western Europe then either.  Strictly speaking, it wasn't our fight.  It was defending allies who were very far away.  The US is still devoted to defending it's allies be it in Taiwan or South Korea or in Europe.  I get the feeling that our European allies are only willing to defend Western Europe.  So long as Russian aggression is confined to the East, it seems Western Europe doesn't give a fuck.

Quite frankly, if at any time in the 20 years or so before the Soviet Union fell apart, the Red Army had come streaming through Fulda Gay, I think most other European members of NATO would have declined to fight unless they themselveds were directly attacked.  I think the Brits would have been the only European members of NATO truly willing to honor their obligations.

[garbon]

the Red Army had come streaming through Fulda Gay

Paging Dr. Freud?