Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Caliga]

overseas commitment to cleaning up Superfund sites

[Queequeg]

I know that you have only recently departed from a land most politicians probably are in the pockets of someone but in most Western Democracies most politicians also have an eye out for the ramificantions on their actions on the economy and therefore the well being of the citizenry at large.  The British were against financial sanctions because a significant part of the British economy is based on London being a major financial centre and financial sanctions would hurt Britain as well as Russia.  The Germans were against energy sanctions because they get a significant amount of energy commodities from Russia.

I agree with Tamas actually. I think one of the side effects of globalisation has been a liberalisation of ethics.

[Snip]

Sheilbh, this is honestly a better piece of writing than anything I've read on the British reaction (or non-reaction) to the Crimean crisis.  Actually starting to wonder again why you aren't a professional writer or blogger. 

The Star of David on the scythe makes it extra special.
The French may have panache and the Germans industrial efficiency, but when it comes to anti-semitism, you can't beat the Russians for sheer persistence and creativity.

But it's the Uko nationalists who are the Nazis!  Surely you don't think that the Russian state would ever be an enemy of the Jewish people, or that the Putin regime would be cynical enough to claim Uko antisemitism as proof of their Fascist connections and frame them for attacks on Synagogues while simultaneously playing to the native antisemitism of the Russian people! 

[katmai]

He doesn't like it when you call him Shirley,








Joan is okay though.

[Queequeg]

Funny how you guys have finally caught up to what I was saying over a decade ago about the "anti war" movement. Back in 2002 I infiltrated some of their earliest gatherings and it was quite clear that they were all suffering from oikophobia "fear of the familiar".  Creatures of the west who feel the need to reject their own heritage.  I blame Dances with Wolves, Pocahontas, The Last Samurai, Avatar etc.

I agree with this at a basic level.  I have an idiot of a friend who's at Harvard who once screamed at me when I pointed out that although he goes out of his way to flay anyone he even suspects of homophobia, his beloved Pashtun and Palestinian freedom fighters would slaughter every self-identified male homosexual without thinking fucking twice about it.  His response was to say that I was a dick. 

[Caliga]

Funny how you guys have finally caught up to what I was saying over a decade ago about the "anti war" movement. Back in 2002 I infiltrated some of their earliest gatherings and it was quite clear that they were all suffering from oikophobia "fear of the familiar".  Creatures of the west who feel the need to reject their own heritage.  I blame Dances with Wolves, Pocahontas, The Last Samurai, Avatar etc.

I believe that this is a normal and healthy part of the process of growing up, so I'm cool with college students acting this way.  Indeed I myself flirted with socialism and shit when I was an undergraduate.  If on the other hand I observe this sort of behavior among middle aged folks I typically wonder about their sanity.

[Hansmeister]

Funny how you guys have finally caught up to what I was saying over a decade ago about the "anti war" movement. Back in 2002 I infiltrated some of their earliest gatherings and it was quite clear that they were all suffering from oikophobia "fear of the familiar".  Creatures of the west who feel the need to reject their own heritage.  I blame Dances with Wolves, Pocahontas, The Last Samurai, Avatar etc.

How's it going Hans?

I've been stuck in Maryland, so pretty shitty.  Maryland is lucky that there is a New Jersey, otherwise it'll be the suckiest State in the Union.

My 2 cents on Ukraine, sorry if somebody else posted something on this but this thread is way too long.

Russia wanted to intervene earlier to keep yanukovic in power, but couldn't due to the Olympics. By the time of the closing ceremony it was too late so Putin had to plan b it.

Putin's goal of a greater Russia would be destroyed if the Ukraine joined EU and NATO, so that needed to be stopped at all cost.  Putin's minimal goal was to carve out a semi-autonomous Crimea for two reasons: as long as there is a question of Ukrainian sovereignty and borders the EU and NATO will not let Ukraine in (just as with Georgia).  Hence Russia is not at all interested to de jure adjust the borders but to create as much uncertainty as possible to paralyze the Ukraine. Having correctly judged the west as weak and irresolute he is now seeing how far he can push without pushback. Can he occupy eastern and southern Ukraine? Or overthrow the current govt and install a puppet regime?  How far he will go will depend on where the west draws a credible line.  So far we have collectively failed miserably, having spent most of our time saying what we are not willing to do instead of what price we are willing to pay.

It is too early to say who will ultimately win, though so far the entire western world has been a complete embarrassment. We often mock hypernationalists (I have to think of yannelis69) but we supposedly enlightened westerners are far more deserving of mockery.

[Sheilbh]

HANS!

Also:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/russia-tries-to-keep-moldova-from-getting-close-to-eu-a-956597.html

[Hansmeister]

I forgot to list my second reason for Putin going into Crimea. Russians have long had a very romantic view of the Crimea.  It was their most popular domestic vacation spot, it symbolized the one part of the classical world that was part of Russia, and it was a symbol of Russia's victory over the Turks ( fun fact, under the original treaty Crimea would revert to the Ottoman Empire in case of independence).

Russia's thinking about Crimea closely resembles the way Germans thought about eastern Prussia during the interwar period.

[Caliga]

Hans: What do you think the West should do in response to Putin's aggression?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Funny how you guys have finally caught up to what I was saying over a decade ago about the "anti war" movement. Back in 2002 I infiltrated some of their earliest gatherings and it was quite clear that they were all suffering from oikophobia "fear of the familiar".  Creatures of the west who feel the need to reject their own heritage.  I blame Dances with Wolves, Pocahontas, The Last Samurai, Avatar etc.

I believe that this is a normal and healthy part of the process of growing up, so I'm cool with college students acting this way.  Indeed I myself flirted with socialism and shit when I was an undergraduate.  If on the other hand I observe this sort of behavior among middle aged folks I typically wonder about their sanity.

I myself dabbled in pacifism, not in 'Nam of course.

[Hansmeister]

Hans: What do you think the West should do in response to Putin's aggression?

First off, stop ruling stuff out. Any statements made should include the phrase "all options are on the table". Create as much uncertainty as possible as to how far we are willing to so as to make Putin hesitate as to how to proceed.

Then, don't talk in a conciliatory manner.  Don't talk about the UN, or a fact finding mission, or negotiations, or settlements.  At this point any appeal to reason is seen simply as weakness. Talk about punitive actions, economic, political, and military.  If a reporter asks an outlandish question such as "will you consider a nuclear first strike", the response needs to be " at this point all options are on the table".  Of course we will not do a nuclear first strike, the point is to make it clear that we're angry and will punish Russia. Putin needs to think "fuck, this time I went too far", or the situation will just continue to deteriorate until things go too far.  At this point belligerence is the best way to prevent war.

[katmai]

Funny how you guys have finally caught up to what I was saying over a decade ago about the "anti war" movement. Back in 2002 I infiltrated some of their earliest gatherings and it was quite clear that they were all suffering from oikophobia "fear of the familiar".  Creatures of the west who feel the need to reject their own heritage.  I blame Dances with Wolves, Pocahontas, The Last Samurai, Avatar etc.

I believe that this is a normal and healthy part of the process of growing up, so I'm cool with college students acting this way.  Indeed I myself flirted with socialism and shit when I was an undergraduate.  If on the other hand I observe this sort of behavior among middle aged folks I typically wonder about their sanity.

I myself dabbled in pacifism, not in 'Nam of course.

[Caliga]

I myself dabbled in pacifism, not in 'Nam of course.

I used to be a badass like you, then I took a bullet to the knee at Khe Sanh.

[Caliga]

Then, don't talk in a conciliatory manner.  Don't talk about the UN, or a fact finding mission, or negotiations, or settlements.  At this point any appeal to reason is seen simply as weakness. Talk about punitive actions, economic, political, and military.  If a reporter asks an outlandish question such as "will you consider a nuclear first strike", the response needs to be " at this point all options are on the table".  Of course we will not do a nuclear first strike, the point is to make it clear that we're angry and will punish Russia. Putin needs to think "fuck, this time I went too far", or the situation will just continue to deteriorate until things go too far.  At this point belligerence is the best way to prevent war.

I guess what I'm unsure about is why we wouldn't want to keep trying to cultivate Russia as an ally like I think we've sort of been trying to do since before Yeltsin.  As far as I can tell China is a much greater potential long-term threat and the Russians could prove quite useful as cannon fodder if we ever got into a shooting war with the Chinese.  I'm not sure I see why it matters to US strategic interests which tribe of Slavs owns the Crimea.  I was joking about this earlier in the thread but I don't quite get why Ukraine has a strong claim to the Crimea in the first place.

[Sheilbh]

On Britain's Russian cash-cow:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116857/british-sanctions-russia-would-be-bad-londons-economy

Take British private schools. According to the Independent Schools Council, there were 2,174 Russian children boarding in the UK last year (Igor Yakunin is a day boy at Highgate School, so doesn't feature in the statistics). Average fees are $15,000 a term, meaning Britain earns somewhere around $100 million a year from Russians in school fees alone. If Prime Minister David Cameron imposes sanctions on the Russian elite, he'll have to explain why a quarrel in a faraway country means private schools should lose that revenue stream.

Those pupils' parents need somewhere to stay, and they don't appear to like hotels. Almost five percent of "prime" properties bought in London last year went to Russians, according to Knight Frank, as well as three percent of the $3.6 billion new-build market. If the Russian cash dries up, some real estate agents are going to be forced to delay buying a new car, and Cameron has an election in 14 months' time.