Ukraine's European Revolution?

[katmai]

Caliga, You are in Chicago now, I will pay you $1,000 if you videotape donkey punching Spellus.

[Admiral Yi]

That's dirty Teamster money Boner.  Don't take it.

[katmai]

That's dirty Teamster money Boner.  Don't take it.

Is not, I've been working non-union for major TV networks very much.

[Razgovory]

That's dirty Teamster money Boner.  Don't take it.

Heh, when my mom ran for senate way back, the Teamsters kept trying to sneak her money over the campaign limit.  Oh those mischievous rapscallions.

[Admiral Yi]

It's dirty scab money Boner, don't take it.

[Jacob]

It's dirty scab money Boner, don't take it.

[katmai]

Just can't please Yip.

[Jacob]

Just can't please Yip.

Better save the effort.

[Capetan Mihali]

You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

What's so wrong with the climate?  I gather the Ukraine is similar to the American Midwest, and the rest of Eastern Europe doesn't seem significantly more harsh than Germany or Sweden...

[Capetan Mihali]

That's dirty Teamster money Boner.  Don't take it.

Not to correct you on your own nicknames, but Cal's not "Boner," is he? 

[alfred russel]

You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

What's so wrong with the climate?  I gather the Ukraine is similar to the American Midwest, and the rest of Eastern Europe doesn't seem significantly more harsh than Germany or Sweden...

Sweden has a low population density and my understanding is that Scandanavia in general was rather poor prior to WWI.

The further east you go from the ocean the colder the continent gets (in general). Germany may not be much warmer than the Ukraine, but I believe it is warmer, and also benefits from being near countries like France, the Netherlands, and the UK.

[garbon]

Climate hardly sounds terrible.

http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/climate/Ukraine.htm

The climate of the Ukraine can be described as dry and continental influenced climate with warm, dry summers and fairly severe winters. January is the coldest month with daytime temperatures usually around 0°C, but in some cases winter months can be quite colder with temperatures far below zero, about -20°C or lower and strong, cold northeasterly winds, called Bora. Heavy snowfall or even snowstorms are also possible on some days. There are more than 290 sunny days in the year. Since Odessa region is drawn out along the meridian, the climate in the narrow � 30-40 km. � stretch along the coast is practically ideal, with the soft tang of the sea mixing with the dry climate of the steppe further inland.

In summer daytime temperatures reach 25-30°C, but sometimes quite higher, 35°C or more, especially in the inland areas. The summer months enjoy dry weather with sunny spells most of the time, rain often falls with sometimes heavy Thunderstorms, but mostly along the coastal areas of the Black Sea. These Thunderstorms often occur at the end of the day. July is the warmest month with an average Temperature of 24°C. Annual Precipitation is about 400-600 mm, but lower in the inland areas of the Ukraine.

Generally, the weather is best May-September, when days are warm and the nights are cool, although it rains more in Spring than in summer. Autumn and Winter are usually a little chilly and wet along the coastal areas of the Black Sea, and dryer further inland.

[Jacob]

Whatever impact the aid had, the Estonians I know would say an even greater factor was cultural, not just because the Kinship factor with the Scandis but because the Estonians had a strong view of the themselves as industrious people (in addition to a very strong hatred of the Russians).

I have no quibble with that - I think that view is shared in Scandinavia and Finland as well. The credit for the trajectory of the three Baltic states definitely goes to the people and governments of those countries. They definitely had Scandinavia and Finland squarely in their corner to champion their entry into Western institutions etc, and I think that does matter, but it is just one factor amongst many of the story.

[Capetan Mihali]

You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

What's so wrong with the climate?  I gather the Ukraine is similar to the American Midwest, and the rest of Eastern Europe doesn't seem significantly more harsh than Germany or Sweden...

Sweden has a low population density and my understanding is that Scandanavia in general was rather poor prior to WWI.

The further east you go from the ocean the colder the continent gets (in general). Germany may not be much warmer than the Ukraine, but I believe it is warmer, and also benefits from being near countries like France, the Netherlands, and the UK.

Ok, so you've revised it from climate to "population density + pre-WWI doesn't count + climate" that renders the Ukraine "destined to lag behind"??

And unlike Germany, the Ukraine actually has a Mediterranean climate within its borders (in the Crimea), and similarly benefits from being near warmer countries like Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey... Or did you mean "being near other rich countries" as the criterion?

Not to mention, of course, how tragically impossible it has been for areas like Colorado, Iowa, Minnesota, Saskatchewan, and Alberta to prosper since they're hamstrung by crippling climactic impediments.

[Neil]

Hmm.

Well historically the shitty Russian agricultural system was not established in Galicia and western and to some extent central Ukraine, so they had an advantage in agricultural production, in addition to the land basically being able to shit crops.  However, collectivization and the holodomor fucked that up.  But I think Eastern Ukraine had some real industrial advantages.  I'd kind of expect it to eventually become something like Belgium; agricultural Flanders beat out by Industrial Wallonia, eventually beat out by post-industrial Flanders.  That's probably what the pro-EU Ukrainian activists want too.

You know more about this stuff than me, but I think the Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, has been destined to lag behind Western Europe because of the climate.

Advanced economies are based on trade, and especially trade via the sea.