Ukraine's European Revolution?

[Ed Anger]

This thread makes me want to play an Eastern Front wargame. Something where I get to kill a lot of Russian divisions.

[Queequeg]

Yes, although there is competition everywhere, including within the state.

Then why didn't the chaos of Africa of the 90s breed competent governments? 

I think agricultural yield of a region is linked to climate which is linked to population density. Population density is a key component of long term development.

Not sure.  Certain parts of the world have had long-term population density but stilted culturally and economically.  Alternatively, Northern Europe lacks population density but overproduces culturally and economically. 

I am not up on Icelandic history, but I was under the impression it was a poor country until recent times. Also, an island in the middle of nowhere with all the fishing to yourself kind of takes the place of agriculture, right?

The Danes were kind of dicks, and there was a period of famine after a volcano.  I think it's always been pretty okay, though.

[Queequeg]

Actually, AR was closer to being right on Iceland.

[Sheilbh]

Then why didn't the chaos of Africa of the 90s breed competent governments? 

Compared to 60s-80s African governments from the 90s on have been pretty competent. The Cold War ending was probably the major factor though.

[Queequeg]

I think that's less Social Darwinism and more social exhaustion and the end of the Cold War. 

[alfred russel]

Yes, although there is competition everywhere, including within the state.

Then why didn't the chaos of Africa of the 90s breed competent governments? 

I think agricultural yield of a region is linked to climate which is linked to population density. Population density is a key component of long term development.

Not sure.  Certain parts of the world have had long-term population density but stilted culturally and economically.  Alternatively, Northern Europe lacks population density but overproduces culturally and economically. 

I am not up on Icelandic history, but I was under the impression it was a poor country until recent times. Also, an island in the middle of nowhere with all the fishing to yourself kind of takes the place of agriculture, right?

The Danes were kind of dicks, and there was a period of famine after a volcano.  I think it's always been pretty okay, though.

Spellus, there are obviously more factors behind good government than just competition. However, in the case of Africa, their standards of living have been increasing over the last few decades. I'm not saying they have been getting good government--for example standards seem to have increased even in Somalia during the anarchy period where government effectively collapsed--but they are getting access to western technologies that were not available to them before. It is an unusual and unsustainable situation.

The parts of the world with high population densities in Eurasia are India, China, and Europe. All of those have had historically high cultural and economic production. Outside of Eurasia the same theme has held, even if the regions lagged behind the Eurasian ones (imo because of their isolation). 

[Capetan Mihali]

Dorsey, why is the first step in your (all-over-the-place) analysis "isolate Eurasia"?  Some inherent attribute due to its "axis"?

And not to repeat Spellus, but you have heard of the Ukraine being considered "the breadbasket" of the region, haven't you?  Comparable to, oh, those other unfortunate, "destined" to lag behind places in North America that produce enormous quantities of cereal grains, far in excess of any of those climactically-blessed places like France, England, um....

You really ought to look up "teleological": it's a word and a concept that's been pretty important among those of us living in cultures that have stood out over the years...

[alfred russel]

Dorsey, why is the first step in your (all-over-the-place) analysis "isolate Eurasia"?  Some inherent attribute due to its "axis"?

And not to repeat Spellus, but you have heard of the Ukraine being considered "the breadbasket" of the region, haven't you?  Comparable to, oh, those other unfortunate, "destined" to lag behind places in North America that produce enormous quantities of cereal grains, far in excess of any of those climactically-blessed places like France, England, um....

You really ought to look up "teleological": it's a word and a concept that's been pretty important among those of us living in cultures that have stood out over the years...

I think the "isolate eurasia" concept is fairly mainstream. The other continents are isolated from each other and both smaller and less diverse. In reality they lagged well behind in development.

I started with the simple concept that the longitudes of western europe are more conducive to producing groundbreaking cultures than the longitudes of the ukraine. Other people started challenging me with a bunch of specific historical examples, as well as hypotheticals. Clearly all history isn't determined by your lines of longitude, so to respond I need to bring in other factors. I don't think that makes it fair to say my analysis all over the place.

I'm aware that the area has been considered a breakbasket. I'm not an expert on agricultural production, but again, it isn't just about what is happening in a specific place--in the general area, production is less. And for what its worth, the Ukraine is sparsely populated in comparison to Western Europe.

[garbon]

Africa is isolated from Eurasia?

[alfred russel]

Africa is isolated from Eurasia?

Yes. There is the Sahara Desert, and the Sinai Peninsula.

[garbon]

Africa is isolated from Eurasia?

Yes. There is the Sahara Desert, and the Sinai Peninsula.

The Sahara desert doesn't isolate North Africa. I also think you would be hard pressed to point out the Sinai as isolating North Africa throughout history. To cite myself:

[alfred russel]

Africa is isolated from Eurasia?

Yes. There is the Sahara Desert, and the Sinai Peninsula.

The Sahara desert doesn't isolate North Africa. I also think you would be hard pressed to point out the Sinai as isolating North Africa throughout history. To cite myself:

They certainly isolate. They are real impediments to travel and trade. They aren't absolute barriers, but very significant ones.

[garbon]

Yes because history has shown that North Africa has not had more than minimal contact with Eurasia. To quote Tamas:

[alfred russel]

Yes because history has shown that North Africa has not had more than minimal contact with Eurasia. To quote Tamas:

North Africa has had very signficant contact and has been a part of the Mediterranean world for a long time.

Sub Saharan Africa has not.

[Neil]

Subsaharan Africa wasn't part of the Mediterranean world, but to act like they didn't have frequent contact with Eurasia is bizarre and impossible to justify.