USS Tennessee

[11B4V]

One of my Fav classes. More thought of as a Battle Cruiser IIRC. To me the most visually appealing, second only to the Iowa-class BB's.

They are good-looking ships, no question.  They really are inferior battleships, though, rather than battlecruisers, because they didn't really have a speed advantage over contemporary battleships.  They were good ships for what they were built for (commerce-raiding), but I think that an objective analysis of their worth would conclude that their main value was in providing German shipyards badly-needed experience in building big armored ships.

They are similar to the Dunkerque class in both of those regards.

Surely

[Berkut]

I've always hear of them referenced as commerce raiders, but aren't they massive overkill for sinking merchant ships?

[11B4V]

I've always hear of them referenced as commerce raiders, but aren't they massive overkill for sinking merchant ships?

True. Kind of like the Tiger

[grumbler]

I've always hear of them referenced as commerce raiders, but aren't they massive overkill for sinking merchant ships?

They were designed to force the French (or British, but the French were the nation the Germans had in mind when designing them) to commit heavier units to commerce protection than cruisers, thus laying France open to German attacks on the main fleet.  Despite what fanboyz will tell you, the "pocket battleships" were vulnerable to cruisers.

The Scharnhorst class weren't really expected to fight battleships, but they were expected to tie up battleships in countering them.

I'd note that the German O-class battlecruisers (planned but never built) were, in fact, battlecruisers; they gave up protection and a turret in order to gain a six-knot speed advantage over the Bismarcks.  That the Germans were still thinking in terms of battlecruisers in 1940 showed just out of touch they were with naval realities.

[Neil]

One of my Fav classes. More thought of as a Battle Cruiser IIRC. To me the most visually appealing, second only to the Iowa-class BB's.

They are good-looking ships, no question.  They really are inferior battleships, though, rather than battlecruisers, because they didn't really have a speed advantage over contemporary battleships.  They were good ships for what they were built for (commerce-raiding), but I think that an objective analysis of their worth would conclude that their main value was in providing German shipyards badly-needed experience in building big armored ships.

They are similar to the Dunkerque class in both of those regards.

Exactly.  The real benefit to Scharnhorst and Dunkerque was that they allowed their builders to work out the kinks for Bismarck and Richelieu.  They weren't supposed to fight capital ships (and the few times that they did, it ended rather badly), but they had to be able to defeat a convoy escort that didn't have a battleship, forcing the opponent to use their fleet to escort convoys.  They were improved pocket battleships.

[Neil]

I'd note that the German O-class battlecruisers (planned but never built) were, in fact, battlecruisers; they gave up protection and a turret in order to gain a six-knot speed advantage over the Bismarcks.  That the Germans were still thinking in terms of battlecruisers in 1940 showed just out of touch they were with naval realities.

By 1940, nobody had built a real battlecruiser in almost 25 years.  The ideas behind Repulse just didn't exist anymore.  I'd be interested in reading a study of the design process behind the Z-Plan ships, just to see where the thinking was that put them there.  I know that Raeder was an old battlecruiser sailor, but he always struck me as a little bit in touch with German realities, at least in the context of a balanced fleet.

[jimmy olsen]

So, if we're talking about shore bombardment in the context of the US Navy, what do you guys think of the Rail Gun program?

Will they be the answer Captain James Kirk is looking for?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/24/captain-kirk-us-navy-zumwalt-star-trek

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/04/booooom_bae_systems_gets_million_of_dollars_to_design_rail_gun/

[Admiral Yi]

We already had the rail gun shore bombardment discussion.

[grumbler]

By 1940, nobody had built a real battlecruiser in almost 25 years.  The ideas behind Repulse just didn't exist anymore.  I'd be interested in reading a study of the design process behind the Z-Plan ships, just to see where the thinking was that put them there.  I know that Raeder was an old battlecruiser sailor, but he always struck me as a little bit in touch with German realities, at least in the context of a balanced fleet.

As near as I can figure out (this discussion caused me to see it Warships1 had returned to the internet, and it has, but with all of the old stuff lost), the battlecruiser idea of 1940 was part of the German commerce-raiding concept where they would have a core force of a battleship to deal with heavy escorts and carrier to scout, and then a battlecruiser or two to chase down the light escorts and merchant ships and sink them.  The battlecruisers would also be the scouts in weather too rough for the aircraft carrier.

the problem with all of this, of course, is that it ignores the fact that the RN would simply assemble a fleet big enough to smash the German force (which is too weak to fight and too big to hide) and then rejoice that the Germans were so stupid as to split their forces up like this to be defeated in detail.

By the time the Germans were contemplating starting these ships, airborne radar was a couple of months from being deployed.  Aircraft with radar make the concept behind these battlecruiser designs obsolete, because they can do pretty much the same job, in all but the worst of bad weather, at a much lower cost.  As a side note, the ASV on the RN's swordfish made the attack on the Bismarck possible; I doubt that any navy but the RN could have launched air strikes in the weather prevailing when Ark Royal and Victorious launched.

If Germany wanted battleships, it should build them; if it wanted battlecruiser capabilities, it should build carriers, and equip them with radar-equipped strike aircraft.