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New Vatican leader raises celibacy question

Started by garbon, September 13, 2013, 08:28:27 AM

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CountDeMoney

Quote from: Tamas on September 17, 2013, 06:38:16 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 17, 2013, 06:36:32 AM
Tamas, it's obvious that you've got substantial issues regarding the topic of religion.  Your young heart is full of hate and cynicism, lost in the wilderness. 
I want you to know: we're all here for you.

I am NOT going into the confession booth with you, old man.

But I'm playing Enigma in the background.

Berkut

Everyone in this thread should stop arguing and go play this game, because it is fucking cool as shit:

http://www.cardhunter.com/
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

select * from users where clue > 0
0 rows returned

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on September 17, 2013, 06:27:56 AM
There can be no doubt that each of the canonical gospels was influenced to some degree by oral tradition, since even the earliest was written several decades after the death of Christ.  Nevertheless, at least as the synoptic gospels are concerned, they seem to bare enough core similarities and have been written earlier to have a greater claim toward being authentic than later texts influenced by other traditions.

All the texts are authentic - IIRC no one claims the Nag Hammadi texts are forgeries.
The similarities between the synoptics do suggest they came out of a similar textual tradition.  That doesn't give them a higher claim to authenticity or priority. 
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Razgovory

Quote from: Tamas on September 17, 2013, 06:33:36 AM
Quote from: grumbler on September 17, 2013, 06:19:55 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2013, 07:03:10 PM
I must admit I regret participating in this thread. Just started as trolling, but looks like a lot of you are much more into the whole religion thing / too insecure in beliefs and drew offense over it. I am sorry.

Your whole approach to this is wrong.  I don't have religious beliefs because I don't believe in magic of any kind.    However, I don't feel any need to bash those who do believe in magic, of any stripe, and I acknowledge that I have met many believers who are sincere and do a great deal of what I consider "objective good" (including doing favors for my ailing, magic-believing parents).

If you want to make an effective argument against a believer, use what I call the Berkut Argument (because he expressed it most clearly here): point out that their beliefs are actually 99.99+% identical to yours - they are disbelievers in millions of gods/magical beings and all the associated stories; the only (and trivial) difference is that they make exceptions to their general disbelief in magic, and you do not.

This will highlight the similarities between beliefs and mitigate the effects of the differences.  Since they are so much like you, you need no longer feel contempt for believers.

Well the contempt thing was in Raz`s head. And I judged that argument as often used and thus well known.  :sleep:

Contempt was Garbon's word.  You simply said that it was your theme.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

derspiess

Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 17, 2013, 06:36:32 AM
Tamas, it's obvious that you've got substantial issues regarding the topic of religion.  Your young heart is full of hate and cynicism, lost in the wilderness. 
I want you to know: we're all here for you.

:w00t:  Prayer Circle!!!
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Ed Anger

Quote from: derspiess on September 17, 2013, 03:19:02 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 17, 2013, 06:36:32 AM
Tamas, it's obvious that you've got substantial issues regarding the topic of religion.  Your young heart is full of hate and cynicism, lost in the wilderness. 
I want you to know: we're all here for you.

:w00t:  Prayer Circle!!!

I'll send him a Robert Tilton prayer cloth.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Razgovory

Quote from: grumbler on September 17, 2013, 06:19:55 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2013, 07:03:10 PM
I must admit I regret participating in this thread. Just started as trolling, but looks like a lot of you are much more into the whole religion thing / too insecure in beliefs and drew offense over it. I am sorry.

Your whole approach to this is wrong.  I don't have religious beliefs because I don't believe in magic of any kind.    However, I don't feel any need to bash those who do believe in magic, of any stripe, and I acknowledge that I have met many believers who are sincere and do a great deal of what I consider "objective good" (including doing favors for my ailing, magic-believing parents).

If you want to make an effective argument against a believer, use what I call the Berkut Argument (because he expressed it most clearly here): point out that their beliefs are actually 99.99+% identical to yours - they are disbelievers in millions of gods/magical beings and all the associated stories; the only (and trivial) difference is that they make exceptions to their general disbelief in magic, and you do not.

This will highlight the similarities between beliefs and mitigate the effects of the differences.  Since they are so much like you, you need no longer feel contempt for believers.

This is untrue, you do believe in magic.  When I first started showing signs of sciatica, you were among the people suggesting seeing a chiropractor, claiming that it worked for you (this was shortly before you decided you so much better then me, you didn't need to talk to me).  The thing is, chiropractic medicine is based on the ideas of life forces and universal and innate intelligences that reflect 19th century spiritualism.  It is a then, a magical discipline.




I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Barrister

Quote from: Razgovory on September 19, 2013, 11:20:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 17, 2013, 06:19:55 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2013, 07:03:10 PM
I must admit I regret participating in this thread. Just started as trolling, but looks like a lot of you are much more into the whole religion thing / too insecure in beliefs and drew offense over it. I am sorry.

Your whole approach to this is wrong.  I don't have religious beliefs because I don't believe in magic of any kind.    However, I don't feel any need to bash those who do believe in magic, of any stripe, and I acknowledge that I have met many believers who are sincere and do a great deal of what I consider "objective good" (including doing favors for my ailing, magic-believing parents).

If you want to make an effective argument against a believer, use what I call the Berkut Argument (because he expressed it most clearly here): point out that their beliefs are actually 99.99+% identical to yours - they are disbelievers in millions of gods/magical beings and all the associated stories; the only (and trivial) difference is that they make exceptions to their general disbelief in magic, and you do not.

This will highlight the similarities between beliefs and mitigate the effects of the differences.  Since they are so much like you, you need no longer feel contempt for believers.

This is untrue, you do believe in magic.  When I first started showing signs of sciatica, you were among the people suggesting seeing a chiropractor, claiming that it worked for you (this was shortly before you decided you so much better then me, you didn't need to talk to me).  The thing is, chiropractic medicine is based on the ideas of life forces and universal and innate intelligences that reflect 19th century spiritualism.  It is a then, a magical discipline.

[God, please forgive me for defending both chiropractic medicine and grumbler (who I like, but find his argumentative style annoying)]

Reporting that something works is different from reporting that something's claims are valid.  I know a few people who claim that chiros have helped them.  Maybe it's just the placebo effect.  Maybe there's some therapeutic value in massage/manipulation that is less that whats chiros claim, but still exists.

Grumbler saying "Hey, a chiro really helped me" doesn't mean he accepts as gospel everything they claim.  In fact when I linked an anti-chiro article to him all he said was "boy am I glad I got better before I read your article".
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Razgovory

Quote from: Barrister on September 20, 2013, 12:18:47 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 19, 2013, 11:20:05 PM
Quote from: grumbler on September 17, 2013, 06:19:55 AM
Quote from: Tamas on September 16, 2013, 07:03:10 PM
I must admit I regret participating in this thread. Just started as trolling, but looks like a lot of you are much more into the whole religion thing / too insecure in beliefs and drew offense over it. I am sorry.

Your whole approach to this is wrong.  I don't have religious beliefs because I don't believe in magic of any kind.    However, I don't feel any need to bash those who do believe in magic, of any stripe, and I acknowledge that I have met many believers who are sincere and do a great deal of what I consider "objective good" (including doing favors for my ailing, magic-believing parents).

If you want to make an effective argument against a believer, use what I call the Berkut Argument (because he expressed it most clearly here): point out that their beliefs are actually 99.99+% identical to yours - they are disbelievers in millions of gods/magical beings and all the associated stories; the only (and trivial) difference is that they make exceptions to their general disbelief in magic, and you do not.

This will highlight the similarities between beliefs and mitigate the effects of the differences.  Since they are so much like you, you need no longer feel contempt for believers.

This is untrue, you do believe in magic.  When I first started showing signs of sciatica, you were among the people suggesting seeing a chiropractor, claiming that it worked for you (this was shortly before you decided you so much better then me, you didn't need to talk to me).  The thing is, chiropractic medicine is based on the ideas of life forces and universal and innate intelligences that reflect 19th century spiritualism.  It is a then, a magical discipline.

[God, please forgive me for defending both chiropractic medicine and grumbler (who I like, but find his argumentative style annoying)]

Reporting that something works is different from reporting that something's claims are valid.  I know a few people who claim that chiros have helped them.  Maybe it's just the placebo effect.  Maybe there's some therapeutic value in massage/manipulation that is less that whats chiros claim, but still exists.

Grumbler saying "Hey, a chiro really helped me" doesn't mean he accepts as gospel everything they claim.  In fact when I linked an anti-chiro article to him all he said was "boy am I glad I got better before I read your article".

So you are saying Grumblers' endorsement of magic does not stem from belief from magic per se, but just his inability to tell the difference between magic and reality?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2013, 12:44:02 AM
So you are saying Grumblers' endorsement of magic does not stem from belief from magic per se, but just his inability to tell the difference between magic and reality?

No he is saying that something can work for reasons different from those proposed by its theoreticians.
For example, the theory behind supply side economics is mostly bunk; nonetheless tax cuts can still benefit a depressed economy.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Barrister

Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2013, 12:44:02 AM
So you are saying Grumblers' endorsement of magic does not stem from belief from magic per se, but just his inability to tell the difference between magic and reality?

No that is not what I am saying.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Eddie Teach

Grumbler once saved himself from a tyrannosaur with a timely fireball spell.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

crazy canuck

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 20, 2013, 09:23:34 AM
Grumbler once saved himself from a tyrannosaur with a timely fireball spell.

But only because his back was sufficiently aligned to allow the essence to flow through him with enough force to generate the spell.

Razgovory

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 20, 2013, 09:01:08 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2013, 12:44:02 AM
So you are saying Grumblers' endorsement of magic does not stem from belief from magic per se, but just his inability to tell the difference between magic and reality?

No he is saying that something can work for reasons different from those proposed by its theoreticians.
For example, the theory behind supply side economics is mostly bunk; nonetheless tax cuts can still benefit a depressed economy.

I think Grumbler can defend himself. :sleep:
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

crazy canuck

Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2013, 02:53:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 20, 2013, 09:01:08 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 20, 2013, 12:44:02 AM
So you are saying Grumblers' endorsement of magic does not stem from belief from magic per se, but just his inability to tell the difference between magic and reality?

No he is saying that something can work for reasons different from those proposed by its theoreticians.
For example, the theory behind supply side economics is mostly bunk; nonetheless tax cuts can still benefit a depressed economy.

I think Grumbler can defend himself. :sleep:

His reader is defective so no, I dont think he can.