No surprise: 1953 Iran coup "carried out under CIA direction"

[Jacob]

False dichotomy. I believe my particular claim of the constitutionality of the Shah's action holds up, and I've already said it doesn't change much of anything.

You're quibbling about the use of "popularly" and you're saying the actions in question were constitutional, but that that fact "doesn't change much of anything"... that sounds like quibbling around the edges to me.

[Admiral Yi]

You're quibbling about the use of "popularly" and you're saying the actions in question were constitutional, but that that fact "doesn't change much of anything"... that sounds like quibbling around the edges to me.

Sure.  And my quibble holds up.  False dichotomy.

[Jacob]

You're quibbling about the use of "popularly" and you're saying the actions in question were constitutional, but that that fact "doesn't change much of anything"... that sounds like quibbling around the edges to me.

Sure.  And my quibble holds up.  False dichotomy.

Your quibble holds up, most definitely. No argument from me at all on either of the points you were quibbling about.

I was wondering if you had some perspective to offer beyond the integrity of your two quibbles; my curiosity has been satisfied on this point now.

[Duque de Bragança]

Considering that Rambo was chumming up with the Taliban in the 80s, I'd say that muslim extremism was something that was not high up in CIA priorities at that time. 

Not the Taliban who did not exist back then, but an idealised Afghani resistance based on Ahmed Shah Massoud cf. the Mujahed leader Masoud in the movie 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095956/trivia?item=tr0667035

The character Masoud (Spiros Focás) is a reference to Ahmad Shah Masoud, a real-life leader of the Afghani resistance against the Russian occupation, minister of defense of Afghanistan (after the Russian occupation ended) and later again a leader of the resistance, this time against the Taliban regime.

The real problem was funneling money through Saudi Arabia and Pakistan which supported their own agendas and men. Massoud being a Tadjik and close culturally to Iran was not exactly seen very well by sunni fundies.

[mongers]

....

The character Masoud (Spiros Focás) is a reference to Ahmad Shah Masoud, a real-life leader of the Afghani resistance against the Russian occupation, minister of defense of Afghanistan (after the Russian occupation ended) and later again a leader of the resistance, this time against the Taliban regime.

The real problem was funneling money through Saudi Arabia and Pakistan which supported their own agendas and men. Massoud being a Tadjik and close culturally to Iran was not exactly seen very well by sunni fundies.

Assassination of, first 'shot' in the Saudi Wahhabist war on the West ?

[Capetan Mihali]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Is this Creator part of our founding principles?

I'm reading the Vermont Constitution, adopted in 1777 for a (de jure) independent republic, and in the Declaration-esque preamble, I found a more literary substitute: "the Author of existence." 

Whereas, all government ought to be instituted and supported for the security and protection of the community as such and to enable the individuals who compose it, to enjoy their natural rights, and the other blessings which the Author of existence has bestowed upon man; and whenever those great ends of government are not obtained, the people have a right, by common consent, to change it, and take such measures as to them may appear necessary to promote their safety and happiness.

And further along, "the Great Governor of the Universe":

We the representatives of the freemen of Vermont, in General Convention met, for the express purpose of forming such a government, confessing the goodness of the Great Governor of the Universe (who alone, knows to what degree of earthly happiness, mankind may attain, by perfecting the arts of government), in permitting the people of this State, by common consent, and without violence, deliberately to form for themselves, such just rules as they shall think best for governing their future society;

[CountDeMoney]

Vermont is so cool.  Much cooler than those asshole neighbors of theirs to the right.

[dps]

Vermont is so cool.  Much cooler than those asshole neighbors of theirs to the right.

Well, they don't have a coastline to be warmed by the waters of the Gulf Stream.   

[CountDeMoney]

Good luck trying to collect, suckers.

Iran considers lawsuit against US over 1953 coup
Parliament gives preliminary approval to bill calling for creation of committee to study issue before legal action is launched

Iran's parliament has given preliminary approval to a bill requiring the government to sue the US for its involvement in the 1953 coup that overthrew the country's democratically elected prime minister.

The bill follows the release of formerly classified documents offering more details of the CIA's role in orchestrating the overthrow of Mohammed Mossadegh 60 years ago.

It calls for the creation of a committee to study the issue and provide a report within six months before legal action is launched against the US government in an international court.

Of the 196 MPs attending the session of parliament, which was broadcast live on state radio, 167 voted in favour of the bill and five opposed it.

The MP Mahdi Mousavinejad said Iran should take legal action to ensure the US take responsibility for its actions. "America's oppressive behaviour [in 1953] shows that the Iranian nation has to stand up and pursue its trampled rights," he said.

But Mohammad Mahdi Rahbari, another MP, opposed the bill, saying it would not bring anything tangible for Iran. "Pursuing this bill has no benefits for our country. It will waste the parliament's time," he said.

The coup restored the despotic regime of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, who had been overthrown in the 1979 Iranian revolution.

MPs said the documents proved that the US had a history of malevolent intervention in Iran and that the admission was sufficient evidence to demand compensation.

In a document revealed this month entitled The Battle for Iran, the CIA reveals the coup plan was called Operation TPAJAX.

The unnamed author of the history writes that previously published accounts miss the point that "the military coup that overthrew Mossadegh ... was carried out under CIA direction as an act of US foreign policy, conceived and approved at the highest levels of government".

The US cut off diplomatic relations with Iran after militant students stormed the US embassy in Tehran to protest against Washington's refusal to hand over the toppled shah to Iran for trial.

The two countries remain at loggerheads over Iran's disputed nuclear programme. Iran denies claims by the US and Israel that it is aiming to build weapons, saying its nuclear programme is for peaceful purposes only.

[grumbler]

The truly ironic thing is that the US-sponsored "coup" against Mossadegh failed.  It was Mossadeqh's over-reaction to his victory 9specifically, in dissolving parliament and adoption of rule by decree) that convinced the army to act against him the next day.

I think that the argument that this was not a coup because it was legitimized post-facto by the Shah is a bit of a blind.  It was a coup.

And Mossadegh was as "democratically elected" as any PM is; he had a 79-12 majority in the parliament.  I think it is always a far riskier thing to help overthrow a leader that has a popular mandate than one who does not.  The idea that government derives its just powers from the consent of the government is pretty widely accepted (I think China is about the only major society that doesn't believe this), and if you act against the consent of the governed, the replacement government will have  a hard time establishing its legitimacy.

[The Brain]

  The idea that government derives its just powers from the consent of the government is pretty widely accepted

True.

[garbon]

  The idea that government derives its just powers from the consent of the government is pretty widely accepted

True.

[crazy canuck]

The truly ironic thing is that the US-sponsored "coup" against Mossadegh failed.  It was Mossadeqh's over-reaction to his victory 9specifically, in dissolving parliament and adoption of rule by decree) that convinced the army to act against him the next day.

You are partially correct.  It is true that the first attempted coup failed.  But then Roosevelt - the CIA operative on the ground and in charge of the operation organized a second coup.  That is why people blame the CIA and the US for the overthrow.   It is true that Mossadegh did over react.  But if you read the link I provided up thread you will see how Roosevelt very skillfully manufactured that overreaction.

For years the CIA tried to take the position that it was in fact a popular overthrow but that story has been discredited.

[grumbler]

You are partially correct.  It is true that the first attempted coup failed.  But then Roosevelt - the CIA operative on the ground and in charge of the operation organized a second coup.  That is why people blame the CIA and the US for the overthrow.   It is true that Mossadegh did over react.  But if you read the link I provided up thread you will see how Roosevelt very skillfully manufactured that overreaction.

For years the CIA tried to take the position that it was in fact a popular overthrow but that story has been discredited.

Roosevelt has retold the story to make himself look better, but the facts on the ground remain the facts on the ground, and the fact is that Roosevelt's coup failed.  It is definitely the case, IMO, that the CIA's coup attempt laid the ground work for the successful coup 3 days (IIRC) later, but the latter occurred without Kermit Roosevelt doing a thing - it was a response to the dissolution of the parliament and the relaxation of martial law (which allowed newspapers to print the Shah's decrees dismissing Mossadegh).  Don't believe everything you read, even when it plays into your own preconceptions.