No surprise: 1953 Iran coup "carried out under CIA direction"

[Admiral Yi]

I see, so if a gun was being held to the head of the person signing the document it would matter not one wit to you so long as the proper paperwork was filed.  Gotcha.

No, you're right.  It would also matter if the CIA had implanted a mind-control chip in the Shah's brain.

[DGuller]

I see, so if a gun was being held to the head of the person signing the document it would matter not one wit to you so long as the proper paperwork was filed.  Gotcha.

Obviously it makes a difference.  The signature doesn't quite look the same when your hands are shaking.

[Jacob]

You could ask Crazy Canuck the same question.  Why is he so set on holding on to the word coup to describe what happened?  I already mentioned to Max that I don't think it makes a lot of difference.  I'm not contesting that it was CIA-initiated, nor am I contesting that Mossadegh had won his office fairly by the rules of the game.

Okay, so the issue is not that the CIA engineered a the downfall of a popularly elected Prime Minster through dirty tricks; it's merely whether it's technically accurate to call that a "coup" or not?

If so, I'll leave the field to you and CC.

[mongers]

You could ask Crazy Canuck the same question.  Why is he so set on holding on to the word coup to describe what happened?  I already mentioned to Max that I don't think it makes a lot of difference.  I'm not contesting that it was CIA-initiated, nor am I contesting that Mossadegh had won his office fairly by the rules of the game.

Okay, so the issue is not that the CIA engineered a the downfall of a popularly elected Prime Minster through dirty tricks; it's merely whether it's technically accurate to call that a "coup" or not?

If so, I'll leave the field to you and CC.

I think Yi is in part channelling Obama.

Meanwhile McCain was actually talking about 53, not 3rd July.

[Admiral Yi]

Okay, so the issue is not that the CIA engineered a the downfall of a popularly elected Prime Minster through dirty tricks; it's merely whether it's technically accurate to call that a "coup" or not?

If so, I'll leave the field to you and CC.

Dirty trick is in the eye of the beholder.

In the quibble department, Mossadegh was not popularly elected; he was elected by a vote of the Majlis, which he won with 7 votes out of 12.

[Admiral Yi]

I think Yi is in part channelling Obama.

The opposite.  Egypt was clearly a coup.

[mongers]

Okay, so the issue is not that the CIA engineered a the downfall of a popularly elected Prime Minster through dirty tricks; it's merely whether it's technically accurate to call that a "coup" or not?

If so, I'll leave the field to you and CC.

Dirty trick is in the eye of the beholder.

In the quibble department, Mossadegh was not popularly elected; he was elected by a vote of the Majlis, which he won with 7 votes out of 12.

An in similar quibble territory, the US president isn't directly elected and the British PM is just invited by a unelected person to form a government.   

[Admiral Yi]

I don't think you understand the quibble concept mongers.

Jacob said Mossadegh was popularly elected.  I corrected him, but not a big deal, therefore a quibble.

No one claimed the US president or the British PM are popularly elected.

[Jacob]

Dirty trick is in the eye of the beholder.

Sure.

I'm getting a bit confused what you're getting at in this discussion. Do you have a particular claim or interpretation of event that you think holds, or are you just quibbling around the edges?

[mongers]

I don't think you understand the quibble concept mongers.

Jacob said Mossadegh was popularly elected.  I corrected him, but not a big deal, therefore a quibble.

No one claimed the US president or the British PM are popularly elected.

Oops, my bad I thought you were addressing the substance of the claim. 

[The Minsky Moment]

Mossadeq was removed from power by an armed mob organized by a foreign power.  At that time, the Shah was in Italy.  That smells a lot like a coup, not so much a normal constitutional transfer of power.

[derspiess]

"Coup, Not a Coup-- You Make the Call"

I feel like we've played this game before

[The Minsky Moment]

I also think it is a bit rich to talk about the Constitutional power of the Shah when the very existence of the Pahlavi dynasty was the result of an extra-constitutional deposition of the Qajars.

[Admiral Yi]

Sure.

I'm getting a bit confused what you're getting at in this discussion. Do you have a particular claim or interpretation of event that you think holds, or are you just quibbling around the edges?

False dichotomy. I believe my particular claim of the constitutionality of the Shah's action holds up, and I've already said it doesn't change much of anything.

[Admiral Yi]

Oops, my bad I thought you were addressing the substance of the claim. 

Then your response about the US electoral college and the Westminster system still make no sense.