For CdM: Bullshit jobs

[CountDeMoney]

I would flay a thousand lawyers and use their skulls for my throne.

Can't.  We'll need them when we privatize everything from the public school systems to the USPS to Detroit.  When government is eliminated once and for all, we're going to need GCs to make sure everything runs correctly according to corporate policy.

[Berkut]

I think there is a perception out there that lawyering is a matter of mastering the right arcane mumbo-jumbo, which can (and maybe should) be either simplified, handed over to a computer to do, or outsourced to India. 

Fact is, there is a certain amount of jargon and mumbo-jumbo in the lawyering world as there is in any profession - but at base, good lawyering requires a deep knowledge of the client's affairs, a deep knowledge of the local circumstances (both regulatory and practical), and the ability, through experience, to foresee the types of problems that can arise - and prevent them. I'm talking about corporate and regulatory lawyering, not litigation, of course - litigation is all about solving problems that haven't been prevented.

To counter Berkut, a lawyer isn't really like a security guard at Wal-mart - a lawyer is more like the architect one hires to build the Wal-mart. Does an architect "make anything"? S/he plans out what others will make, taking into account the local building codes, the physical layout of the mall, and the customer's needs. Similarly, a corporate lawyer plans out how a buisness is to operate, down to such minor details as whether the baby sleepware sold in the store mas to be seperately tested in that specific jurisdiction or whether the testing in (say) California would suffice. Plan badly, and very bad things happen. This is not something you want to farm out to some dude in India ...

But the lawyers do not plan out how the business is to operate - that is the job of the people who manage the business. Deciding if the baby sleepware needs to be separately tested is NOT "planning how the business will operate" it is figuring out how to apply the law to a particular products testing, and absent said law and the potential litigation that goes laong with such laws, the lawyer is not needed. Again, they are not producing anything, they are simply making sure that the business avoids costs.

They don't decide how to make the sleepwear, or how to market it, or where to place it in the store, or what it should be made out of, or who should make it, or any of those things. I am certina that they have input into decisions that do in fact impact the competitive success of the business, but mostly that is tangential to their actual job which is to protect the business from costs associated with the legal requirements and legal exposure of doing business. Absent those requirements or that exposure, they have no job, or certainly no job that could not be done by someone without a legal degree, and hence not a lawyer.

But I suspect this isn't an argument that can possibly get any traction with the lawyers.

Hell, here is another anaology: Lawyers are like officials in sports. That is something that I do, and I am perfectly content to say that we do not produce a damn thing, and if you could structure competitive sports business in such a way that our services were not needed, as a business you would be better off - we do not "produce" anything when it comes to sports. If you could make it so the players always followed the rules, we could (and would) be ditched immediately and replaced by people whose job it was to simply manage the mechanics of the game. And if you could have a game where even that wasn't necessary, you certainly would. We are not part of the product, we are just there because the alternative is worse.

[Tamas]

Meh.

Nurses do a shitty job but let`s face it: there is kind of a big supply of people who are capable to wipe shit off old people`s arses and stuff. Less supply of decent corporate lawyers.

Supply and demand And if anybody seriously think that in this age and economy only the ones actually doing the producing are necessary, then they don`t know what they are talking about.

[Berkut]

Meh.

Nurses do a shitty job but let`s face it: there is kind of a big supply of people who are capable to wipe shit off old people`s arses and stuff. Less supply of decent corporate lawyers.

Supply and demand And if anybody seriously think that in this age and economy only the ones actually doing the producing are necessary, then they don`t know what they are talking about.

Just to be clear, I am not and would not argue that the idiotic premise of the article writer is accurate - whether or not you are a production or a cost center is largely immaterial to his basic point. The idea that just because some role is more of a cost than a production role therefore it is less worthy is just plain stupid.

I don't think corporate lawyers, in general, are a waste of resources by any means. I think they fill a perfectly necessary need, and are compensated accordingly.

Now, I *do* think that in the US the particulars of our system have ill served us by creating something of a positive feedback loop where lawyers have society wide inflated their role by sticking their grubby ass little fingers into the process of defining our legal structure in a way that inflates the need for lawyers. But I suspect that is a particular phenomenon, not a general one.

[Berkut]

Nurses do a shitty job but let`s face it: there is kind of a big supply of people who are capable to wipe shit off old people`s arses and stuff. Less supply of decent corporate lawyers.

I've always thought that nurses get kind of screwed by the very term "nurse". It is way too general, and refers to basically anyone who provides any kind of healthcare who is not a doctor.

But the difference between some associate degree candy striper who pretty much changes bedpans and brings people their meds in a little paper cup and maybe takes some blood pressure and a nurse with a masters (or even doctorate) who assists a brain surgeon doing surgical procedures, or a neo-natal ICU nursing specialist is pretty stark. Calling them both the same basic job description seems kind of ridiculous.

[Valmy]

Nurses do a shitty job but let`s face it: there is kind of a big supply of people who are capable to wipe shit off old people`s arses and stuff. Less supply of decent corporate lawyers.

There is actually a shortage of nurses and an excess of lawyers

[CountDeMoney]

Nurses do a shitty job but let`s face it: there is kind of a big supply of people who are capable to wipe shit off old people`s arses and stuff. Less supply of decent corporate lawyers.

I've always thought that nurses get kind of screwed by the very term "nurse". It is way too general, and refers to basically anyone who provides any kind of healthcare who is not a doctor.

You have to remember that Tamas is defining the term "nurse" from an Eastern European shithole gypsy fucktard perspective.  He simply doesn't know any better.

[Eddie Teach]

I thought the people who changed bed pans were called orderlies.

[CountDeMoney]

I thought the people who changed bed pans were called orderlies.

Hospitals got rid of orderlies decades ago.

[Barrister]

Hell, here is another anaology: Lawyers are like officials in sports. That is something that I do, and I am perfectly content to say that we do not produce a damn thing, and if you could structure competitive sports business in such a way that our services were not needed, as a business you would be better off - we do not "produce" anything when it comes to sports. If you could make it so the players always followed the rules, we could (and would) be ditched immediately and replaced by people whose job it was to simply manage the mechanics of the game. And if you could have a game where even that wasn't necessary, you certainly would. We are not part of the product, we are just there because the alternative is worse.

That's a fair analogy, I guess.  I know that in a perfect world my job wouldn't exist, as people wouldn't be committing crime.

But you can say that about a lot of jobs.  Lots of jobs are set up to ensure that other people are doing their jobs correctly, and aren't trying to screw the system.  Accounts payable was mentioned.  Any of a variety of security positions.  Human resources.  Lots of management positions.

Unfortunately, given the imperfections of the human race, we do need these kinds of oversight / rules enforcing jobs.  Saying that they don't produce anything is true in one sense, but seems to miss the bigger picture - without them you'd be producing even less.

[garbon]

I thought the people who changed bed pans were called orderlies.

Hospitals got rid of orderlies decades ago.

Don't nursing assistants exist though?

[Valmy]

Yeah surely you do not have to be a full fledged RN to have even the lowest job in a hospital.

[CountDeMoney]

Don't nursing assistants exist though?

Yeah, but he wasn't asking about nursing assistants.  Or nursing students.   Or LPNs.

[garbon]

Don't nursing assistants exist though?

Yeah, but he wasn't asking about nursing assistants.  Or nursing students.   Or LPNs.

Okay. Pretty clear that Teach was suggesting that there actually are positions that don't have to be shorthanded to nurse (i.e. they aren't all called the same). A nursing assistant isn't a nurse, even if one incorrectly labels them one. Nor is a PCA.

[CountDeMoney]

There's a shitload of different levels of nurses and patient care professionals.  But orderlies went the way of the carrier pigeon, which is a shame.