Richard Dawkins criticised for Twitter comment about Muslims

[Josquius]

Sure they still consider themselves Muslim but they are not "within" the conservative group, as you put it.  For example, almost all of the Muslims I know are Iranian families who fled Iran during or after the revolution.  The have absolutely nothing in common with the society that has been transformed by the revolution into a theocracy.

Simply being a Muslim does not put a person within the conservative group anymore than someone considering themselves to be Christian puts them within the same group as any number of conservative denominations of Christianity.

Most Iranians you meet in the west whether they came over 30 days or 30 years ago have little in common with the religious rural masses, just as it was pre revolution.

And sure they are. That's a pretty big thing with Islam particularly, once you're in you can't get out.

To a Lutheran a Calvinist is a very different thing. Compare the two of them to a Buddhist however?
Groups have layers.

[crazy canuck]

Remember your point was that criticising from within a conservative group is more effective than criticising from outside that group.  Now you are making my point that there are a lot of people who consider themselves to be Muslim who are not within the conservative group.

[Josquius]

Remember your point was that criticising from within a conservative group is more effective than criticising from outside that group.  Now you are making my point that there are a lot of people who consider themselves to be Muslim who are not within the conservative group.

Islam is the conservative group.

[Viking]

Given that you don't know anything about her apart vicariously through the character I play on languish I wouldn't be offended. Even if you did know her and even if there was some grounds for that insult and it caused me shame and distress none of those emotions on my part justify anything.

It must be nice to be a robot.

Robots don't feel shame and distress. Humans can choose to act of their emotions and are judged by their choices. Animals act on instinct.

[mongers]

The way Twitter comments are all over the news lately rather annoys me

Agreed.

The medium really has become the message.  Its very inexpensive for new agencies to create content from social media.  Much more difficult and expensive to send reporters out to find what used to be considered real news.

Indeed and I rather like this tweet which is somewhat tangential to the issue:

Jack of Kent @JackofKent
Modern news cycle: event; incomplete news report; social media anger at incomplete news; comprehensive news report about social media anger.

[crazy canuck]

Remember your point was that criticising from within a conservative group is more effective than criticising from outside that group.  Now you are making my point that there are a lot of people who consider themselves to be Muslim who are not within the conservative group.

Islam is the conservative group.

No its not.  Islam is a religion composed of many and varied views.  There are conservative groups within Islam (as there are within other religions) who care not one wit what their more liberal co-religionists might say.

[Josquius]

Remember your point was that criticising from within a conservative group is more effective than criticising from outside that group.  Now you are making my point that there are a lot of people who consider themselves to be Muslim who are not within the conservative group.

Islam is the conservative group.

No its not.  Islam is a religion composed of many and varied views.  There are conservative groups within Islam (as there are within other religions) who care not one wit what their more liberal co-religionists might say.

As opposed to ranting madly when a non Muslim says something along the same lines.

[crazy canuck]

Remember your point was that criticising from within a conservative group is more effective than criticising from outside that group.  Now you are making my point that there are a lot of people who consider themselves to be Muslim who are not within the conservative group.

Islam is the conservative group.

No its not.  Islam is a religion composed of many and varied views.  There are conservative groups within Islam (as there are within other religions) who care not one wit what their more liberal co-religionists might say.

As opposed to ranting madly when a non Muslim says something along the same lines.

Tyr, Dawkins believes all religion is evil.  I am pretty sure no liberal Muslim would make an argument along the same lines.

[mongers]

Muslim  comics.... omid djahili and shappi whatsherface were ok for  a while but their act grew old.

And  it is very tied into ethnicity. In the UK especially.

Is the "it" you are referring to Muslims and if so what ethnicity are Muslims in the UK?

Mostly Asian up my way.
Nigerian and Somali are big groups elsewhere.

He's not, I thought it was maybe Farsi (ethnicity) and/or a lapsed Zoroastrian ?

edit:
I was wrong he and his parents are Bahá'í , though I was right that he was a non-muslim Iranian/persian.

[Queequeg]

Islam is  a bit more of a real religion than Mormonism though

it's not that odd.
A young merchant on the periphery of the great civilizations of the day hears voices from God and claims to have received the revelation of a new scripture that will complete and cap the revelations of the old monotheistic faiths.  Those who accept the new faith will achieve a worldly paradise in the afterlife.

Wait now I forgot which one I was talking about.

The Hajj also has obvious direct parallels. I suspect Smith and Mohammed were very similar people, And despite the fact that they're at completely different ends of the Monotheist scale there are just a shitton of similarities. Always amused me.

[garbon]

Constructive criticism from within, even with very conservative groups, works better than outsiders shouting a  them to change their ways.

Where does internal criticism come from within very conservative groups who, by definition, would be very reluctant to make any changes and by extension even contemplate such changes.

Kids realising how fucked up things are I guess.
You do increasingly see liberal Muslim groups in the west.
Though I've no idea where on earth this is going, it has all rather veered away from the original point :s

No, the original point of this thread was a discussion about if an outsider is legitimate in criticizing any idea associated with an ethnic or social or cultural identity.

Was that the original point?

From the horses mouth

http://www.richarddawkins.net/foundation_articles/2013/8/9/calm-reflections-after-a-storm-in-a-teacup

I like how he uses quotation marks on things that aren't quotes.

Also seems like he says that this was his point:
"did intend to raise in people's minds the question of whether the religion itself is inimical to scientific education. I don't have the answer, but I think it is well worth asking the question."

[crazy canuck]

Also seems like he says that this was his point:
"did intend to raise in people's minds the question of whether the religion itself is inimical to scientific education. I don't have the answer, but I think it is well worth asking the question."

Dawkins answered his own question with regard to the Jewish Nobel recipients.  It appears that religion itself can be a boon to scientific education.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I think it's a defensible thesis.

seems this guy (Al-Ghazali) is taken as the killer of critical thought within that religion. It sputters on a bit after his passing though
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers.

[garbon]

I think it's a defensible thesis.

seems this guy (Al-Ghazali) is taken as the killer of critical thought within that religion. It sputters on a bit after his passing though
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers.

Yes, Viking posted about that in the 2nd post of this thread.

[Viking]

Neil Degrasse Tyson takes down the Asharites and Al-Gazali with his "Naming Rights" bit from the Beyond Belief Conferance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDAT98eEN5Q