Italy court confirms jail term for Berlusconi

[alfred russel]

I love that a Berlusconi thread here on Languish turns into a naval discussion.

Had Languish existed during WWII, the thread on the Battle of Taranto would have turned into a discussion of some obscure topic from the Franco Prussian War.

[Agelastus]

I don't think that range was a big concern for the Italians, given that they weren't really built with the idea of operating far from base.  They were more concerned with running down the French than reaching out into the Atlantic.  I don't really hold it against them.

They traded range and (to some extent) firepower for protection.  You are probably correct that that was the better choice, for them.

As opposed to the smaller Italian cruisers, which traded range, protection and seaworthiness for blazing speed.

Blazing speed "during trials when overloading the engines" you surely mean (as wartime experience showed) - except for the Capitani Romani class that sadly entered service too late to do much good.

[Caliga]

I'm not a big fan of this derailment.  Berlusconi is probably the greatest guy in history.

[Neil]

I don't think that range was a big concern for the Italians, given that they weren't really built with the idea of operating far from base.  They were more concerned with running down the French than reaching out into the Atlantic.  I don't really hold it against them.

They traded range and (to some extent) firepower for protection.  You are probably correct that that was the better choice, for them.

As opposed to the smaller Italian cruisers, which traded range, protection and seaworthiness for blazing speed.

Blazing speed "during trials when overloading the engines" you surely mean (as wartime experience showed) - except for the Capitani Romani class that sadly entered service too late to do much good.

To be fair, it's not like it was common to make your trial speed in combat situations.  But they were fast enough to flee from the British at every turn.

[grumbler]

I'm not a big fan of this derailment.  Berlusconi is probably the greatest guy in history.

So you could say he is the modern politician equivalent of a Zara class cruiser prewar?

[Caliga]

He's more of an Admiral Scheer

[Agelastus]

I don't think that range was a big concern for the Italians, given that they weren't really built with the idea of operating far from base.  They were more concerned with running down the French than reaching out into the Atlantic.  I don't really hold it against them.

They traded range and (to some extent) firepower for protection.  You are probably correct that that was the better choice, for them.

As opposed to the smaller Italian cruisers, which traded range, protection and seaworthiness for blazing speed.

Blazing speed "during trials when overloading the engines" you surely mean (as wartime experience showed) - except for the Capitani Romani class that sadly entered service too late to do much good.

To be fair, it's not like it was common to make your trial speed in combat situations.  But they were fast enough to flee from the British at every turn.

The first batch of the Condotierris, the ones with the fastest trial speeds, certainly weren't fast enough to "flee from the British at every turn."

[Ed Anger]

He's more of an Admiral Scheer

I had a model of the Graf Spee. First model my Dad bought me. 

[Neil]

I don't think that range was a big concern for the Italians, given that they weren't really built with the idea of operating far from base.  They were more concerned with running down the French than reaching out into the Atlantic.  I don't really hold it against them.

They traded range and (to some extent) firepower for protection.  You are probably correct that that was the better choice, for them.

As opposed to the smaller Italian cruisers, which traded range, protection and seaworthiness for blazing speed.

Blazing speed "during trials when overloading the engines" you surely mean (as wartime experience showed) - except for the Capitani Romani class that sadly entered service too late to do much good.

To be fair, it's not like it was common to make your trial speed in combat situations.  But they were fast enough to flee from the British at every turn.

The first batch of the Condotierris, the ones with the fastest trial speeds, certainly weren't fast enough to "flee from the British at every turn."

Speed one way or the other doesn't make much of a difference in battles like Cape Bon.  For one thing, they were fighting destroyers, which should have a speed advantage against anything.  For another, it's difficult to control the engagement in a night action when your enemy has radar and you don't.  The Italians were good at running from British forces they knew about.  When a flotilla of destroyers snuck up behind them and torpedoed them from point blank range, before pouring gunfire into them, they had a harder time.  Actually, that's almost the exact situation that got the Zaras destroyed, except the 4th Cruiser Squadron had no reason to expect a sudden destroyer attack, whereas the Zaras knew the enemy was near and searching for them.

[Neil]

He's more of an Admiral Scheer

I had a model of the Graf Spee. First model my Dad bought me. 

My first was Hood, but shortly thereafter I got a 1/700 waterline Matchbox Graf Spee.

[Agelastus]

I don't think that range was a big concern for the Italians, given that they weren't really built with the idea of operating far from base.  They were more concerned with running down the French than reaching out into the Atlantic.  I don't really hold it against them.

They traded range and (to some extent) firepower for protection.  You are probably correct that that was the better choice, for them.

As opposed to the smaller Italian cruisers, which traded range, protection and seaworthiness for blazing speed.

Blazing speed "during trials when overloading the engines" you surely mean (as wartime experience showed) - except for the Capitani Romani class that sadly entered service too late to do much good.

To be fair, it's not like it was common to make your trial speed in combat situations.  But they were fast enough to flee from the British at every turn.

The first batch of the Condotierris, the ones with the fastest trial speeds, certainly weren't fast enough to "flee from the British at every turn."

Speed one way or the other doesn't make much of a difference in battles like Cape Bon.  For one thing, they were fighting destroyers, which should have a speed advantage against anything.  For another, it's difficult to control the engagement in a night action when your enemy has radar and you don't.  The Italians were good at running from British forces they knew about.  When a flotilla of destroyers snuck up behind them and torpedoed them from point blank range, before pouring gunfire into them, they had a harder time.  Actually, that's almost the exact situation that got the Zaras destroyed, except the 4th Cruiser Squadron had no reason to expect a sudden destroyer attack, whereas the Zaras knew the enemy was near and searching for them.

I was actually thinking of Spada, not Bon. And even at Bon the "official" speeds of the cruisers in question were supposedly faster than those of the Destroyers that snuck up on them.

[Ed Anger]

He's more of an Admiral Scheer

I had a model of the Graf Spee. First model my Dad bought me. 

My first was Hood, but shortly thereafter I got a 1/700 waterline Matchbox Graf Spee.

I graduated to the South Dakota. Never could get those mast things right on the superstructure.

[CountDeMoney]

I graduated to the South Dakota. Never could get those mast things right on the superstructure.

That's why I stuck with aircraft carriers.

[Neil]

He's more of an Admiral Scheer

I had a model of the Graf Spee. First model my Dad bought me. 

My first was Hood, but shortly thereafter I got a 1/700 waterline Matchbox Graf Spee.

I graduated to the South Dakota. Never could get those mast things right on the superstructure.

I followed up Graf Spee with Iowa, and then Gneisenau.

[Neil]

I don't think that range was a big concern for the Italians, given that they weren't really built with the idea of operating far from base.  They were more concerned with running down the French than reaching out into the Atlantic.  I don't really hold it against them.

They traded range and (to some extent) firepower for protection.  You are probably correct that that was the better choice, for them.

As opposed to the smaller Italian cruisers, which traded range, protection and seaworthiness for blazing speed.

Blazing speed "during trials when overloading the engines" you surely mean (as wartime experience showed) - except for the Capitani Romani class that sadly entered service too late to do much good.

To be fair, it's not like it was common to make your trial speed in combat situations.  But they were fast enough to flee from the British at every turn.

The first batch of the Condotierris, the ones with the fastest trial speeds, certainly weren't fast enough to "flee from the British at every turn."

Speed one way or the other doesn't make much of a difference in battles like Cape Bon.  For one thing, they were fighting destroyers, which should have a speed advantage against anything.  For another, it's difficult to control the engagement in a night action when your enemy has radar and you don't.  The Italians were good at running from British forces they knew about.  When a flotilla of destroyers snuck up behind them and torpedoed them from point blank range, before pouring gunfire into them, they had a harder time.  Actually, that's almost the exact situation that got the Zaras destroyed, except the 4th Cruiser Squadron had no reason to expect a sudden destroyer attack, whereas the Zaras knew the enemy was near and searching for them.

I was actually thinking of Spada, not Bon. And even at Bon the "official" speeds of the cruisers in question were supposedly faster than those of the Destroyers that snuck up on them.

I had a lengthier post that seems to have been eaten in the forum switchover.

At any rate, there was no reason to expect the cruisers at Cape Bon to be steaming at anything more than cruising speed.  And as for Spada, that's a good example of how the Italians couldn't make ultra-high speeds, even if the ships were mishandled in their maneuvering to avoid Crete.