Wealth distribution in the US

[Razgovory]

Yes.  It was my impression that slavery was bad because of the principles you laid out with negative and positive rights.  Slavery is wrong because it's people doing bad things to other people.  Pollution is also a case where people do bad things to other people.  Pollutants can do anything from mildly annoy people and reduce property value to kill or permanently disable folks.  The principles you used to justify the outlawing slavery would seem to apply here.  However, you balk at it.  Instead you say something about the far more arbitrary principle of "communal decisions".

I already explained why I don't consider all pollution to be wrongdoing.  You're just restating what you've already said.

Water or air is simply the medium in which harm is inflicted.  The problem isn't that a person is causing harm to the air, it's that he's causing harm to a person.  The problem with slavery isn't the abuse of whips or chains but the harm to a person.

[The Minsky Moment]

Are you of the opinion that to own property is a positive right?  Or to be in a state that you are born into is a positive right?

I am not of the opinion that property is a positive right. 

That's what gives ulmont's criticism some bite.
Person A says " i want to eat, I am going to take a fish from the lake"
Person B says " that lake is mine, pay for the right to take fish."
The state has to decide which claim to favor.

[Ideologue]

But that's easy.  The lake belongs to the State.

[Admiral Yi]

Water or air is simply the medium in which harm is inflicted.  The problem isn't that a person is causing harm to the air, it's that he's causing harm to a person.  The problem with slavery isn't the abuse of whips or chains but the harm to a person.

The air is a communal resource that we decide how to use, weighing up the costs and benefits of each use.  The harm that is done to people through pollution is a necessary evil because of the benefits of power generation, or locomotion, or production.

[Admiral Yi]

That's what gives ulmont's criticism some bite.
Person A says " i want to eat, I am going to take a fish from the lake"
Person B says " that lake is mine, pay for the right to take fish."
The state has to decide which claim to favor.

The state is not supposed to "take."  That's a negative right.  You can't ask the Supreme Court for redress when your car is boosted because your right to own it has been infringed. 

Law enforcement and courts are services which we have socialized, like national defense.  We don't have a "right" to not be invaded either.

[Jacob]

We don't have a "right" to not be invaded either.

Spoken like the citizen of a country with the most powerful military.

[The Minsky Moment]

That's what gives ulmont's criticism some bite.
Person A says " i want to eat, I am going to take a fish from the lake"
Person B says " that lake is mine, pay for the right to take fish."
The state has to decide which claim to favor.

The state is not supposed to "take."  That's a negative right.   

I don't understand - where in this scenario is the state "taking" anything?

You can't ask the Supreme Court for redress when your car is boosted because your right to own it has been infringed.

Of course you can get redress through a court - it is called an action for conversion.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't understand - where in this scenario is the state "taking" anything?

It is not.

Of course you can get redress through a court - it is called an action for conversion.

Please tell me more.

[Admiral Yi]

Spoken like the citizen of a country with the most powerful military.

And?

[The Minsky Moment]

Yi - not sure what you are arguing.
It seems like you are making an assumption that property rights are in some way natural and pre-exist the state.  But maybe I have misunderstood.

Conversion - if property is taken illegally, the victim may bring a lawsuit against the perpetrator seeking the value of the property taken.

[Razgovory]

Water or air is simply the medium in which harm is inflicted.  The problem isn't that a person is causing harm to the air, it's that he's causing harm to a person.  The problem with slavery isn't the abuse of whips or chains but the harm to a person.

The air is a communal resource that we decide how to use, weighing up the costs and benefits of each use.  The harm that is done to people through pollution is a necessary evil because of the benefits of power generation, or locomotion, or production.

A necessary evil?  If Slavery was a necessary evil, that it was required for our economy then would that change the dynamics?  Slave owners seemed to think so.

What if slaves were not owned by individuals but a communal resource?  Say they worked in Gulags owned by the state or were were rented out to people like prisoners were in late 19th century and early 20th?  Would it then be somehow different?

[Admiral Yi]

A necessary evil?

Yes.

If Slavery was a necessary evil, that it was required for our economy then would that change the dynamics?

Yes.

What if slaves were not owned by individuals but a communal resource?  Say they worked in Gulags owned by the state or were were rented out to people like prisoners were in late 19th century and early 20th?  Would it then be somehow different?

Yes.  Emancipation probably would have come earlier and without bloodshed.

[Razgovory]

A necessary evil?

Yes.

If Slavery was a necessary evil, that it was required for our economy then would that change the dynamics?

Yes.

What if slaves were not owned by individuals but a communal resource?  Say they worked in Gulags owned by the state or were were rented out to people like prisoners were in late 19th century and early 20th?  Would it then be somehow different?

Yes.  Emancipation probably would have come earlier and without bloodshed.

Very interesting Yi.  Honestly didn't expect you to agree to that.

[Admiral Yi]

How could you not?  The answer is contained in the hypothetical.  If slavery were a *necessary* evil your attitude would change too.  Same with infanticide, cannibalism, anything that we find abhorrent.  If we found them necessary, we would find them necessary.

[Ideologue]

Raz, you ever hear of a little event called World War II, where we led some twelve million men into involuntary servitude?