McDonalds: "What, my peon, you don't work two full time jobs?"

[Admiral Yi]

Shelf:

"The pressure to increase it" is an interesting turn of phrase.  I suppose you mean political pressure to increase the minimum wage?

I don't see how you get the idea the EITC is about redistribution.  My understanding is it was designed as a replacement for FIDC (Families with Infants and Dependent Children), the cornerstone of Johnson's Great Society, which absolutely disincentivized work (and fathers).  The core value of the EITC was that it's better to work than to be on the dole, but that working people with low incomes can still use assistance.

The core belief in your value system appears to be it's better to be on the dole than in a job that doesn't pay enough to support a family.

I don't see the contradiction between my two statements.  The labor market (all markets for that matter) is about getting the best deal you can.

[Syt]

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/29/opinion/temple-hidden-fast-food-taxes/index.html?hpt=ibu_c2

Opinion: How McDonald's sends taxpayers the bill

(CNN) -- Don't let McDonald's new "Dollar Menu and More" distract you. Although an order of McNuggets might cost more than a buck now, the truth is that the Dollar Menu was never a bargain.

In reality, whether you eat the fries or not, fast-food companies such as McDonald's actually shift billions of dollars in hidden costs onto taxpayers every year. How? These costs flow directly from their business model of low wages, nonexistent benefits and limited work hours, which force millions of fast-food workers to rely on public assistance to afford basic necessities such as food and health care.

To see this business model in action, take a look inside the employee break room at many McDonald's restaurants, where you might find a poster displaying information for a 1-800 "McResource" hotline designed to offer counseling to employees who need financial, housing, child care or other help.

In a recent exchange on the McResource hotline, documented in a newly released video, an employee who has worked at McDonald's for 10 years -- yet earns the Illinois minimum wage of $8.25 per hour -- is urged to find additional support for herself and her two children by paying a visit to nearby food pantries, applying for food stamps and signing up for Medicaid.

In other words, rather than sitting down with their employees to address the reality that the company's pay scales are just too low -- and that even long-term employees can't get by on their small paychecks -- McDonald's has decided to coach its workers on how to enroll in public safety-net programs to supplement their poverty-level wages. (McDonald's called the video an inaccurate portrayal of the resource line.)

In total, this business model of low wages and no benefits at the 10 largest fast-food companies costs taxpayers an estimated $3.8 billion each year, according to a recent report by the National Employment Law Project. At McDonald's, the company's low-wage jobs cost taxpayers an estimated $1.2 billion a year -- twice as much as any other fast-food company.

Public safety-net programs such as the Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program (commonly known as "food stamps") and Medicaid are crucial programs for alleviating poverty and promoting economic security in the United States. That is precisely why we cannot afford to let multibillion-dollar companies drain the resources of these programs by paying poverty-level wages to millions of their workers.
Fast food workers demand higher wages

The good news is that over the past year, thousands of workers in the fast-food industry have begun organizing and staging strikes in dozens of cities across the country, calling for a living wage and the right to form a union. These demands should be taken seriously. All Americans -- even those who have never worked in fast food or have no plans to eat fast food -- need to recognize that the low-wage fast-food industry poses significant costs to all of us each year.

Fast-food workers should have the ability to bargain collectively for higher wages and better working conditions. Giving workers a voice at the workplace will ensure a fairer, more democratic workplace, while keeping in check the irresponsible business model of CEOs tapping the public safety net for billions in subsidies each year as they continue to pay poverty-level wages.

At the same time, Congress should pass a long-overdue increase in the federal minimum wage, which has remained stuck at just $7.25 per hour -- or $15,080 a year -- for the past four years.

Although many companies will continue to pay as little as they can get away with, raising the minimum wage to $10.10 per hour, as proposed in the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2013, would boost wages for 30 million workers, generating $32 billion in new economic growth as higher wages power greater consumer spending.

A fairer fast-food industry that provides higher wages, promotes greater economic growth and spares taxpayers billions in costs every year sounds like a real value worth fighting for.

These types of jobs were NEVER designed to support a family! They were designed to provide high school kids and young college students with some work experience, and a little spending money.

Why are the liberals insisting that none of this is the fault of the employee? If you have been flipping burgers at McDonald's for 10 years, then you have made some seriously poor decisions. Why in the world would anyone think that this type of a job should support a family, a house payment, and a car payment?

[DontSayBanana]

Yeah, the EITC is complete fucking garbage.  Made $22k once, and I still actually paid taxes.  It's unbelievable.

Nothing much that's funnier than seeing freeloaders whine. 

I still actually paid taxes   

It's not freeloading if you're being taxed on a primary income that isn't even a living wage.  The reason I'm not living with my girlfriend is because when we set up a budget, making a combined income of $39k, we'd struggle anywhere other than a trailer in this area.  I made around $22k before, and ended up moving out of my own apartment back in with my family because it wasn't enough to get by.

[Sheilbh]

"The pressure to increase it" is an interesting turn of phrase.  I suppose you mean political pressure to increase the minimum wage?

Nope. Market pressure.

I don't see how you get the idea the EITC is about redistribution.

It's the (edit: second) biggest income transfer in US policy. It redistributes income through the tax system - which, incidentally, is an effective (and cheap) way of doing it.

I don't how get a massive transfer of dollars isn't about redistribution?

My understanding is it was designed as a replacement for FIDC (Families with Infants and Dependent Children), the cornerstone of Johnson's Great Society, which absolutely disincentivized work (and fathers).

I can't find much about the first program. Do you mean 'Aid to Families with Dependent Children'? That was replaced in 1997 by the 'Temporary Assistance for Needy Families'. Incidentally in the UK child benefit was historically given to the mothers only, but the reason was that the men would spend it in the pub.

The EITC was introduced in the mid-70s, initially it was seen as a way of off-setting social security payments paid by the working poor.

The core belief in your value system appears to be it's better to be on the dole than in a job that doesn't pay enough to support a family.

That's an odd interpretation.

On this I'd say there's two things. Work should always be better than the dole (and, tied to this, if you're in work you should be paying taxes). Spending's tight: we all shouldn't be paying companies' wages for them. It's the other side of no-one being able to make a lifestyle out of welfare.

[DGuller]

Sheilbh, do you realize that your proposal would mean far less incentives to get a marginal job?  If welfare pays me $8/hr, and McDonalds $10/hr, then why should I bust my hump for $2 an hour?  Neither wage will let me wear the flashiest tracksuits and the thickest gold chains, but I'll have plenty of free time with $8 an hour.

[Sheilbh]

Sheilbh, do you realize that your proposal would mean far less incentives to get a marginal job?  If welfare pays me $8/hr, and McDonalds $10/hr, then why should I bust my hump for $2 an hour?  Neither wage will let me wear the flashiest tracksuits and the thickest gold chains, but I'll have plenty of free time with $8 an hour.

Yep. I think that would have an effect on wages.

It would also mean that in Gups example the firm that, for whatever reason, paid $12 an hour would get the benefit of that. They'd get more productive better staff, rather than fighting in the same pool as the $8 an hour (+welfare).

[Admiral Yi]

we all shouldn't be paying companies' wages for them.

We're not.

[merithyn]

It's not freeloading if you're being taxed on a primary income that isn't even a living wage.  The reason I'm not living with my girlfriend is because when we set up a budget, making a combined income of $39k, we'd struggle anywhere other than a trailer in this area.  I made around $22k before, and ended up moving out of my own apartment back in with my family because it wasn't enough to get by.

That's ~$2600/month after taxes. How is that not enough for two people to live on? I managed to raise four kids on that, paying $1000/month rent.

[Admiral Yi]

Jersey is not cheap.

[DGuller]

It's not freeloading if you're being taxed on a primary income that isn't even a living wage.  The reason I'm not living with my girlfriend is because when we set up a budget, making a combined income of $39k, we'd struggle anywhere other than a trailer in this area.  I made around $22k before, and ended up moving out of my own apartment back in with my family because it wasn't enough to get by.

That's ~$2600/month after taxes. How is that not enough for two people to live on? I managed to raise four kids on that, paying $1000/month rent.

$1 in New Jersey doesn't go nearly as far as $1 in flyover country.

[merithyn]

$1 in New Jersey doesn't go nearly as far as $1 in flyover country.

I'm well-aware, but I'd assume that it would be enough to cover two in New Jersey when it was enough to cover five in the Chicago suburbs.

Cost of living calculator has it as pretty similar as when I lived in Chicago, actually. http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/

EDIT: Even including Champaign/Newark comparison, most of the difference is in cost of housing, which could be off-set by getting a much smaller apartment for two than is necessary for the raising of four children.

It wouldn't be easy, but it could be done.

[DontSayBanana]

I'm well-aware, but I'd assume that it would be enough to cover two in New Jersey when it was enough to cover five in the Chicago suburbs.

Cost of living calculator has it as pretty similar as when I lived in Chicago, actually. http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/

Three words: student loan debt.  Even going under the fed's "thrifty" food budget, we'd still be in trouble.  I realize McDonald's isn't out to pay for people with a BA+, but there are far more jobs that pay like McDonald's in our area than jobs that don't.  As far as a livable income, we've got doctors & nurses, attorneys and their staff, and union laborers (of whom, a significant number are laid off because nobody wants to hire laborers at union rates).  My county's particularly screwy when it comes to pay vs. cost of living.

[merithyn]

Three words: student loan debt.

Ah, okay. That makes sense.

Even going under the fed's "thrifty" food budget, we'd still be in trouble.  I realize McDonald's isn't out to pay for people with a BA+, but there are far more jobs that pay like McDonald's in our area than jobs that don't.  As far as a livable income, we've got doctors & nurses, attorneys and their staff, and union laborers (of whom, a significant number are laid off because nobody wants to hire laborers at union rates).  My county's particularly screwy when it comes to pay vs. cost of living.

I agree that McDonald's doesn't pay enough. I was just taken off-guard by the amount you made and not being able to live off it. The student loan debt, however, makes sense.

[PDH]

DSB has had to take a lot of classes to be an expert in everything.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

DSB has had to take a lot of classes to be an expert in everything.

I, on the other hand, was born that way.