The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

Sorry to say but I greatly disagree with this. It has infected much/most of America's foreign policy since 9/11 happened and as America looms large globally, it has impacted a lot. It definitely was a watershed moment with aspects that continue to reverberate.

A very, very small example, the ESTA/ETA/ETIAS thing. The US led the pack in introducing the ESTA directly as a result of the 9/11 commission. There's no way that didn't eventually impact UK/EU decision to implement simiar.

Yeah I think the foreign policy is the bit I was thinking of, because there's more but it's not a change of direction from the 90s.

Article 5 was declared. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were both at least partially justified on the basis that you could not have failed states or ungoverned spaces because they would incubate terrorism - so it was expanding that world system. In the case of Afghanistan, Russian support was very important in allowing the US and NATO allies to use Central Asian airbases (previously unimaginable). And I think Russia and China were in large part integrated into a worldview ("you're with us or you're with the terrorists") with their own analogous experiences in Chechnya and Xinjiang. Even figures like Gadaffi were brought in from the cold but, also I think more positively (I think Bush's greatest achievement) things like PEPFAR and development goals for Africa.

NATO and the EU expand - there are Colour Revolutions in Serbia, Georgia and Ukraine furthering the ongoing triumphant march of liberal democracy and liberal market capitalism within a rules based order. Ending up at the point of the first NATO summit in Romania where the US pushes for NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine with strong European resistance (particularly France and Germany).

I don't think it's coincidental that many of the most virulent never Trump figures on the right are basically from the neo-con wing (I think the anti-semitism on Trump's right is also a factor here), such as David Frum, Bill Kristol - or, for that matter, that you have a Cheney campaigning with the Democratic Presidential nominee (or that that nominee was replacing someone who had been, broadly, supportive of post-9/11 policies). Because I think the break or watershed is later - I think it's the 2010s but particularly the crash and 2016.

Maybe what we're seeing (sample size of 2) is that 9/11 wasn't seen as particularly pivotal in the UK? Would other British languishites care to opine? How significant are the 9/11 attacks seen to be in the UK?

I'd draw a slight distinction. 9/11 was absolutely significant, it was a huge event. My contention is more around how consequential they are, not how significant they are - which is a tiny point but I think important they were a huge event especially on a human level.

But you may well be right - I've certainly seen lots of stuff about the "long 1990s" which includes post-9/11 but I think is fairly British. But I've definitely read books by more than just Brits which include post-9/11 within the broad "end of history" moment (I think to an extent that's even Fukuyama's argument/response to 9/11 - Jihadi Islamism wasn't a systemic challenger in the way the Cold War was it was conflict within the end of history).

Could it be said that 9/11 led to Tony Blair's (and thus, "New Labour") reputation/legacy going from hero to zero?

Iraq specifically.

[Josquius]

Iraq for sure tarnished Blair. But I do still think without 2008 and instead Brown getting his chance to do more than just save the world, that New Labour could have remained broadly positively viewed.

[Savonarola]

I completed a 1500 day streak on Duolingo today. 

Congratulations, what language(s) do you do?

French 

Sacre Bleu!

I do French, Spanish and Italian; which are all languages I had previously studied at the community college level.  My experience has been Duolingo isn't good at teaching grammar, but it is an excellent vocabulary builder, which I found the most tedious part of language learning.

[Sheilbh]

I think Anki is absolutely worth the one off cost if you can find the right flashcards. Although mainly used for grammar

[Josquius]

Anki costs?

I used that quite a lot back with Japanese though I don't think it ever really stuck. I seem to remember getting stuck in loops of the same ones I could just never remember. And some stuff going into long term only to reappear completely forgotten.

Im approaching day 1000 on duolingo.
Mostly French but I've got low level German and Spanish there too. Partially for practical needing to learn reasons but largely for gamey reasons for when I get stuck at a hard point in French but need to get my daily use checked off/score a few points.
I should really get back to Japanese at some point. I know it's still clinging on a bit somewhere in there.

Yesterday it threw chess at me so ended up shooting up the table playing chess. This does not feel intended.


Duolingo and grammar... Honestly it's worked for me. I get the purpose of some forms now where I didn't before. Though for sure there were (are?) some where it just feels random.

As I've said before some of their word choices are weird too.

[Sheilbh]

I think it costs like £25 to buy - but that's it. Anything that charges monthly (like Anki pro) is unnecessary.

[Savonarola]

Im approaching day 1000 on duolingo.
Mostly French

Well this has completely shattered my notions of good and evil.

[garbon]

I think Anki is absolutely worth the one off cost if you can find the right flashcards. Although mainly used for grammar

I used Anki for my citizenship test. I knew I was ready when I recognized some of the mistakes the creator had.

[Valmy]

So the terrorists won in the end then.

Did they? We certainly lost, I am not sure they won.

[Admiral Yi]

We won.  We didn't hand back Al Andalus, we still have troops desecrating Saudi Arabia, and Israel still exists.  And Osama's bullet riddled corpse is lying at the bottom of the Indian Ocean.

[Jacob]

I rate it as a Pyrrhic victory for the US, and one with grave negative consequences for the US and the West.

[Sheilbh]

I think Pyrrhic victory is broadly fair. Although it slightly depends who you consider the parties - as I think on any measure, the Taliban won and not in pyrrhic way but I think pretty much totally and probably for the long term (I can't see anyone else being interested in an external intervention/war in Afghanistan).

I'm not sure on the terrorists won because I think that only really works if you take the sort of "they hate us for our freedom" line, which I think is nonsense.

Al-Qaeda had very serious beliefs that went way beyond that. I don't think that form of radical jihadi Islamist extremism was ever anything but nihilism in a globalised world though. And I don't know that it'll ever fully go away, but seems a lesser force now and al-Qaeda certainly is.

[viper37]

Admit it.  You see this scenejn Grey's Anatonomy. ER.  Maybe The Pitt, and you thinl "crazy Hollywood writers".

Nope.  It's al true.  All of it....
UK doctor leaves in the middle of surgery tp have sex with nurse