Orson Scott Card, Anti-Gay Author, Responds To 'Ender's Game' Boycott Campaign

Started by garbon, July 09, 2013, 12:53:38 PM

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derspiess

So then this Card fella is the latest "2 minutes of hate" target, then?  I doubt I would've heard about him, otherwise.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

merithyn

Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 04:04:14 PM
Yet another example of how thinly held most people's actual "belief" in the importance of liberty and freedom actually is when it comes right down to it.

Anyone who can claim that attempting to censor art if anyone involved in the production believes and supports things they don't like is ok doesn't understand the concept of liberty at all.

This is funny. I'm not attempting to censor anyone. I'm not calling for the movie to be taken down. I'm not demanding that it never be seen. I'm choosing not to spend my money on it. Period. End of story.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Barrister

Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 04:04:14 PM
Yet another example of how thinly held most people's actual "belief" in the importance of liberty and freedom actually is when it comes right down to it.

Anyone who can claim that attempting to censor art if anyone involved in the production believes and supports things they don't like is ok doesn't understand the concept of liberty at all.

A boycott isn't really censoring though. :huh:
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Berkut

Quote from: derspiess on July 09, 2013, 04:05:15 PM
So then this Card fella is the latest "2 minutes of hate" target, then?  I doubt I would've heard about him, otherwise.

It is all so transparent, I am continually amazed at how easily people fall for mob psychology.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Berkut

Quote from: merithyn on July 09, 2013, 04:06:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 04:04:14 PM
Yet another example of how thinly held most people's actual "belief" in the importance of liberty and freedom actually is when it comes right down to it.

Anyone who can claim that attempting to censor art if anyone involved in the production believes and supports things they don't like is ok doesn't understand the concept of liberty at all.

This is funny. I'm not attempting to censor anyone. I'm not calling for the movie to be taken down. I'm not demanding that it never be seen. I'm choosing not to spend my money on it because someone associated with it has beliefs I don't like. And hopefully, if enough people do the same, then business will stop associating with people who have views I don't like.

Fixed your post for completeness.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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merithyn

Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 04:08:03 PM
Quote from: merithyn on July 09, 2013, 04:06:19 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 04:04:14 PM
Yet another example of how thinly held most people's actual "belief" in the importance of liberty and freedom actually is when it comes right down to it.

Anyone who can claim that attempting to censor art if anyone involved in the production believes and supports things they don't like is ok doesn't understand the concept of liberty at all.

This is funny. I'm not attempting to censor anyone. I'm not calling for the movie to be taken down. I'm not demanding that it never be seen. I'm choosing not to spend my money on it because someone associated with it has beliefs I don't like. And hopefully, if enough people do the same, then business will stop associating with people who have views I don't like.

Fixed your post for completeness.

That's a bit rich. I've never said that I hoped "enough people do the same, then business will stop associating with people who have views I don't like." I said that I am choosing not to spend my money on it. Finite.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Berkut

Quote from: Barrister on July 09, 2013, 04:06:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 04:04:14 PM
Yet another example of how thinly held most people's actual "belief" in the importance of liberty and freedom actually is when it comes right down to it.

Anyone who can claim that attempting to censor art if anyone involved in the production believes and supports things they don't like is ok doesn't understand the concept of liberty at all.

A boycott isn't really censoring though. :huh:

Of course it is - it isn't active censorship by the government of course (which would clearly be illegal), but it is most certainly an attempt to silence those who have divergent viewpoints by punishing completely unrelated business activities based on those viewpoints. The goal is to make the point that associating with people who hold anti-gay rights views will have an economic cost that makes it not worth it.

This is no different, as garbon said, to someone saying they have the right to not watch a movie written by a Jew, or a black guy, or starring someone who is gay or whatever, and they would like others to do the same, so that movie makers will quit trying to make movies written by Jews.

It isn't illegal censorship of course, but it is certainly censorship.

The irony that some parts of the gay community are engaging in activity that is identical to that which they fought so hard against is almost funny, if it wasn't so depressing.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Josephus

How much does boycotting the movie affect him, though? Don't buy his books, perhaps.
Civis Romanus Sum<br /><br />"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton 1950-2011

Berkut

Quote from: Josephus on July 09, 2013, 04:13:47 PM
How much does boycotting the movie affect him, though? Don't buy his books, perhaps.

Of course it won't affect him in any real way at all, even if it works - he already made his money.

The point is to send a message to Hollywood about who they can and cannot do business with in the future.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Camerus

I honestly feel life is more enjoyable if you can ignore these little political tempests, and just consume the works you enjoy.  I couldn't give less of a shit what his views are on any current hot topics, so long as they don't appear polemically in the film.  I'm sure I've enjoyed countless works by people whose views on certain subjects I would strongly disagree with or even find distasteful, and my life is the richer for it.

frunk

Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 04:17:39 PM
Quote from: Josephus on July 09, 2013, 04:13:47 PM
How much does boycotting the movie affect him, though? Don't buy his books, perhaps.

Of course it won't affect him in any real way at all, even if it works - he already made his money.

The point is to send a message to Hollywood about who they can and cannot do business with in the future.

Are there conditions under which a boycott would not be a hypocritical self-defeating waste of time?

Barrister

Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 04:12:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 09, 2013, 04:06:27 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 04:04:14 PM
Yet another example of how thinly held most people's actual "belief" in the importance of liberty and freedom actually is when it comes right down to it.

Anyone who can claim that attempting to censor art if anyone involved in the production believes and supports things they don't like is ok doesn't understand the concept of liberty at all.

A boycott isn't really censoring though. :huh:

Of course it is - it isn't active censorship by the government of course (which would clearly be illegal), but it is most certainly an attempt to silence those who have divergent viewpoints by punishing completely unrelated business activities based on those viewpoints. The goal is to make the point that associating with people who hold anti-gay rights views will have an economic cost that makes it not worth it.

This is no different, as garbon said, to someone saying they have the right to not watch a movie written by a Jew, or a black guy, or starring someone who is gay or whatever, and they would like others to do the same, so that movie makers will quit trying to make movies written by Jews.

It isn't illegal censorship of course, but it is certainly censorship.

The irony that some parts of the gay community are engaging in activity that is identical to that which they fought so hard against is almost funny, if it wasn't so depressing.

I dunno man - I tend to avoid watching supporting Michael Moore's stuff because I strongly disagree with his politics.  I don't think of that as censorship...
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Malthus

Quote from: merithyn on July 09, 2013, 03:43:43 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 09, 2013, 03:02:33 PM

There are probably a good 200+ people involved in the making of a major Hollywood movie. Hell, maybe even two or three times that number. Who knows.

I can assure you that some of those people will use some of their money to do something you do not approve of, or fund some political group you don't like.

So really, you and garbon and everyone else who want to boycott this movie, need to boycott all movies. And music. And art. And plays. And food. And drink. And clothes. And everything that you can spend money on.

Because I can assure you that there is no item you buy that somewhere in the chain of people involved in getting that item to you doesn't support some cause you don't like.

Why Card and this movie deserves special consideration, I do not know.

Because Card is openly and actively working toward something that I heartily disagree with. I'm aware of it, and I have an option to support or not support his work. It's my choice how I spend my money much as it's his choice how he spends his.

Whether you understand/agree with it is irrelevant to any decision that I might make. I'm not ignorant in my choices, nor am I an "embicile".

I suppose one point Berkut is making is that the writer of a book on which a movie is based isn't the most significant major player in the making of the movie ...  ;) A movie based on a book by Card isn't really "Card's work" in the same way as his books are, even if he writes the screenplay.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

Jacob

Doesn't one have to act in some sort of official capacity to be a censor?

merithyn

Quote from: Malthus on July 09, 2013, 04:52:34 PM

I suppose one point Berkut is making is that the writer of a book on which a movie is based isn't the most significant major player in the making of the movie ...  ;) A movie based on a book by Card isn't really "Card's work" in the same way as his books are, even if he writes the screenplay.

I disagree. It affects the sale of his books.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...