Was Malthus ever poor?

[Barrister]

I don't think anybody disagrees that Malthus's experience was different from CC's or Meri's, but I don't think English supports a clear distinction between them without getting into wordy clarifications or outright twisting of the meaning of "poor".

Well, MW has this as a description of poverty:

the state of one who lacks a usual or socially acceptable amount of money or material possessions

and Malthus has argued that his period after college is what typically happens after college, when kids have to suddenly support themselves.  So I don't think it would involve wordy clarifications or word-twisting if one wanted to say that Malthus had a usual amount of money for someone fresh out of college (particularly one not motivated to better himself).

No, the opposite conclusion is more compelling.  As I argued in this and the other thread, and as you point out here.  Most kids find themselves in the Malthus' position.  Although Malthus position was still advantaged because of the lack of debt.  Therefore his circumstances were in no way lacking the "usual" amount of money in his circumstances.

I don't know that "most kids find themselves in that situation".

When I think back to most of my university-era friends they were generally able to all find modest but above-minimum wage jobs upon graduation.

[crazy canuck]

When I think back to most of my university-era friends they were generally able to all find modest but above-minimum wage jobs upon graduation.

I am very happy that you associated yourself with a group of people that bucked the trend.  Although you also recently posted that your friends who took teaching degrees were not as fortunate.

[Jacob]

Alternatively, I'm not quite sure why "growing up poor" is some huge badge of honour that needs to be protected against.  Does "growing up poor" make you a better, more moral, person?

No, but it means you have a better idea of what it's like to grow up poor than someone who had a few years after graduating university.

Sort of like if someone stayed in an RV near Tofino for a weekend they can't speak with too much authority about what it's like surviving in the great Northern wilds of Canada.

That said, Malthus has not in anyway misrepresented his experience. The only real issue is what is meant by the word poor.

I am sympathetic to argument that Malthus' definition of being poor is a poor (heh) reflection of the realities of poverty. In addition to basically rendering rhetorically invisible grimness of what Meri, Otto, and CC define as being poor (and which is a reality in both Canada and the US) it also minimizes the heroic achievements of those like CC (and Otto?) who lifted themselves into the ranks of the upper middle class from actual poverty. Neither you, I, nor Malthus have done that but if we claim that getting our shit together after a few years of lean living around university constitutes lifting ourselves out of poverty then we're claiming the same personal narrative (to use Otto's phrase) as CC (and Otto?) when what we did is the statistical norm given our social circumstances, while what they did is the statistical outlier.

[Admiral Yi]

Biscuit is a general's son.  He was born with a golden braid in his mouth.

[Caliga]

Anyway, this is Malthus's alt history thread

[Barrister]

When I think back to most of my university-era friends they were generally able to all find modest but above-minimum wage jobs upon graduation.

I am very happy that you associated yourself with a group of people that bucked the trend.  Although you also recently posted that your friends who took teaching degrees were not as fortunate.

They were stuck in the substitute teaching rut for a few years.  The instability sucks, but they could put a roof over their head.

[Malthus]

That said, Malthus has not in anyway misrepresented his experience. The only real issue is what is meant by the word poor.

I am sympathetic to argument that Malthus' definition of being poor is a poor (heh) reflection of the realities of poverty. In addition to basically rendering rhetorically invisible grimness of what Meri, Otto, and CC define as being poor (and which is a reality in both Canada and the US) it also minimizes the heroic achievements of those like CC (and Otto?) who lifted themselves into the ranks of the upper middle class from actual poverty. Neither you, I, nor Malthus have done that but if we claim that getting our shit together after a few years of lean living around university constitutes lifting ourselves out of poverty then we're claiming the same personal narrative (to use Otto's phrase) as CC (and Otto?) when what we did is the statistical norm given our social circumstances, while what they did is the statistical outlier.

This, though, is bullshit.

I never claimed that my experience was the same as those who grew up poor. In fact, if you read the thread, you would see that I consistently said the opposite - that a few years' stint of being (without money? Money disadvantaged? What exactly would you have me say here?) is not the equivalent of growing up poor. This whole fracas was started because I corrected CC on this very point - and myself said that I had advantages he lacked.   

I love how on Languish you can say one thing over and over again, but people will *still* claim you have said the exact opposite: "basically rendering rhetorically invisible" is right - what I actually said is being "rendered rhetorically invisible" here. His claim to heroism is quite safe from any alleged assault by me. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

I'm kind of on Malthus' side in all this, he has never pulled the "I was poor" thing.........his statements have been realistic.........not pursuing an artistic bent because he likes middle-class comforts and so on.........

OTOH I do think we are at the birth of a meme............there is "poor" and there is "Malthus poor" 

Poor : "holiday? what is a holiday?"

Malthus poor : "I'm going to Hawaii for my holidays, but I'm flying economy class  "

[Malthus]

I'm kind of on Malthus' side in all this, he has never pulled the "I was poor" thing.........his statements have been realistic.........not pursuing an artistic bent because he likes middle-class comforts and so on.........

OTOH I do think we are at the birth of a meme............there is "poor" and there is "Malthus poor" 

Poor : "holiday? what is a holiday?"

Malthus poor : "I'm going to Hawaii for my holidays, but I'm flying economy class  "

It will go well with the $2000 stroller meme. Which is also something I never had, but got stuck to me because I was laughing at the fact someone I knew had one.

[katmai]

Well when you were laughing at them for getting something so cheap...

[Jacob]

This, though, is bullshit.

I never claimed that my experience was the same as those who grew up poor. In fact, if you read the thread, you would see that I consistently said the opposite - that a few years' stint of being (without money? Money disadvantaged? What exactly would you have me say here?) is not the equivalent of growing up poor. This whole fracas was started because I corrected CC on this very point - and myself said that I had advantages he lacked.   

I love how on Languish you can say one thing over and over again, but people will *still* claim you have said the exact opposite: "basically rendering rhetorically invisible" is right - what I actually said is being "rendered rhetorically invisible" here. His claim to heroism is quite safe from any alleged assault by me. 

Isn't this whole thread a discussion about whether by saying "poor" you are (CC's view) or are not (your view) making those claims?

[Jacob]

It will go well with the $2000 stroller meme. Which is also something I never had, but got stuck to me because I was laughing at the fact someone I knew had one.

I recently learned than you can get a hand-crafted Aston Martin branded stroller, limited to 800 world wide. If your acquaintance has another child, maybe they should look into that?

http://www.silvercrossbaby.com/aston-martin/

[Razgovory]

I thought Malthus was raised by insects or something.

[Valmy]

It will go well with the $2000 stroller meme. Which is also something I never had, but got stuck to me because I was laughing at the fact someone I knew had one.

We are well aware you did not actually have the stroller Malthus.

I am somewhat puzzled by the idea that being poor is a credential only gained once you have met a series of requirements.  Maybe Fiddler on the Roof was wrong about being poor not being a great honor.

[Admiral Yi]

I thought it was Malthus' stroller.