Sonia Sotomayor for USSC?

[Valmy]

How the hell did you get it is ok to cheat from that?

[Malthus]

The problem is that the way sports are run in some universities is distorting the purpose of having a university in the first place and leads to lots of cheating.

That book only talks about reformation.  It actually says pointblank that there are lots of positive advantages of College Athletics and that the problems need to be minimized.

Where have I said that college athletics were bad? I thought I said the exact opposite.

I am arguing that there are problems with the way it is run, not that it is bad per se.

I would prefer to see college athletics as a truly amateur thing - complete with all the values of fair play that implies - university students in athletic programs to be sure, but not pro athletes hired as "students".

I dislike the "winning at all costs" aspect that is tainting (to an extent) university athletics. This may not affect the vast majority of university athletes to be sure. But it is disingenuous to insist it isn't a concern at all, or that to the extent it is a concern it is for the good of the university.

[Berkut]

How about considering the Wonderlic scores that show despite them succeeding in all those classes at some of our better colleges, many of them still test lower than the average security guard.

Many of whom? What source? What are you claiming here - that of all the people in involved in college athletics, "many" of them test lower than a security guard, even after graduation?

If that is your claim, I would love to see your source.

[Malthus]

How the hell did you get it is ok to cheat from that?

I say that cheating in admissions and the like in favour of admitting star athletes is a bad thing.

You say everyone benefits.

[alfred russel]

How about considering the Wonderlic scores that show despite them succeeding in all those classes at some of our better colleges, many of them still test lower than the average security guard.

Many of whom? What source? What are you claiming here - that of all the people in involved in college athletics, "many" of them test lower than a security guard, even after graduation?

If that is your claim, I would love to see your source.

The definitive source of wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_Test

Average football player: 20
Average Security Guard: 17
Positions with an average score equal to or below security guard: Wide Receiver, Fullback, halfback.

I don't have any idea how well sourced that article is.

[Valmy]

I dislike the "winning at all costs" aspect that is tainting (to an extent) university athletics. This may not affect the vast majority of university athletes to be sure. But it is disingenuous to insist it isn't a concern at all, or that to the extent it is a concern it is for the good of the university.

But this mentality is pervasive in academic departments all across the nation who compete for grant money at all costs rather than concentrate on educating students.

You come to the same conclusion: if you want individual academic attention you go to a smaller school.

However that is neither here nor there.  We are clearly arguing about different things. 

I say College Athletics are good and in the .01% of the cases, in big time football and basketball programs, to the extent they are corrupt they are still overall a positive thing even if they could use some reformation.

[Savonarola]

You people should look into Howard Gardner's theory of MI before pooh-poohing athletes.

As well as Daniel Goleman theories of Emotional Intelligence:

Emotional Intelligence (EQ) is the foundation of leadership. Academic training and technical knowledge contribute less than 7% to our personal and professional success. At the highest organizational levels, technical skills or academic credentials no longer offer the distinct advantage. Skills such as resourcefulness, ingenuity and creativity are the sustainable advantage in today's marketplace. How we manage our perceptions, stay resilient with disappointment and manage ambiguity of change and relationships is how we build character. Coaching individuals and facilitating high performing teams using EQ, allows us to increase our emotional intelligence and recall our innate skill for leadership at work, and in life.

[Valmy]

The definitive source of wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_Test

Average football player: 20
Average Security Guard: 17
Positions with an average score equal to or below security guard: Wide Receiver, Fullback, halfback.

I don't have any idea how well sourced that article is.

Um...dude...those are people who have careers in the National Football League.  That is hardly a definitive sample of student athletes or even College Football players.

Edit: Heh check it out Offensive Tackles score as well as the average journalist.

[Malthus]

Judging from the summary, that book does not argue anything at all what you are suggesting - that there is widespread cheating and some kind of systemic and serious problem with athletics degrading the mission of schools overall even outside the realm of the athletes.

And it is a rather obvious false appeal to authority to boot.

Shrug. I know that nothing will persuade you. Here's another article, a bit more in depth.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3860/is_200405/ai_n9391704/

[Valmy]

Shrug. I know that nothing will persuade you. Here's another article, a bit more in depth.

Interesting factoids this is some new information I have not seen before.

I shall try to read it and come back later.

Edit: darnit it is just a book review not an actual article.

[alfred russel]

Um...dude...those are people who have careers in the National Football League.  That is hardly a definitive sample of student athletes or even College Football players.

Edit: Heh check it out Offensive Tackles score as well as the average journalist.

If we are talking about drastic lowering of standards, my guess is that only frequently occurs in football and basketball at most schools.

As for it not being a representative sample of college football player intelligence, on the one hand you are correct that it is just a subset of those that go to the NFL. But would you really argue that there is a bias among college football players that the dumber ones go to the NFL?

As for offensive linemen and other more cerebral positions scoring highly--that shouldn't be a suprise. Being somewhat smart is a skill you can use in the game. What is disturbing is the more athletic positions show no evidence of recently receiving a college education.

[Valmy]

As for it not being a representative sample of college football player intelligence, on the one hand you are correct that it is just a subset of those that go to the NFL. But would you really argue that there is a bias among college football players that the dumber ones go to the NFL?

Yes because those guys who have a shot at the NFL, and go to schools where that is a realistic possibility, simply have different priorities than the ones that do not.  I have a hard time imagining a football player at the average Division I FCS, Division II, or Division III school not knowing that his time playing football was over the moment his eligibility runs out.

[alfred russel]

Yes because those guys who have a shot at the NFL, and go to schools where that is a realistic possibility, simply have different priorities than the ones that do not.  I have a hard time imagining a football player at the average Division I FCS, Division II, or Division III school not knowing that his time playing football was over the moment his eligibility runs out.

Why does that matter? Doesn't it indicate that at least for those players with NFL potential, the whole student thing is a charade to get them on the field?

[Valmy]

Why does that matter? Doesn't it indicate that at least for those players with NFL potential, the whole student thing is a charade to get them on the field?

Perhaps.  Even if that was true in the case of players with NFL level talent that would simply be in their best interests: if you had a chance at a career to make you a millionaire wouldn't you spend most of your time in College studying that area?  Further we do not even have wonderlic test scores of the average student to compare for godsake what sort of conclusions can we come to?  Finally, and again, this is such a tiny tiny minority I dont see it as conclusive enough to say that all College Athletics are a bad thing.

Malthus' book though is more interesting.  I might actually consider reading it as it seems to be bringing forth numbers that counter what I have heard before.

[Berkut]

How about considering the Wonderlic scores that show despite them succeeding in all those classes at some of our better colleges, many of them still test lower than the average security guard.

Many of whom? What source? What are you claiming here - that of all the people in involved in college athletics, "many" of them test lower than a security guard, even after graduation?

If that is your claim, I would love to see your source.

The definitive source of wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_Test

Average football player: 20
Average Security Guard: 17
Positions with an average score equal to or below security guard: Wide Receiver, Fullback, halfback.

I don't have any idea how well sourced that article is.

That is looking only at athletes who make it to the NFL - what is that, maybe .001% of all college athletes?

See, this is the basic problem with your position (and Malthus) you are looking at one ridiculous extreme, and then apply that in general to a group that is a thousand times larger tahn your cherry picked examples, and concluding that the problem is systemic.

Your source fails to show what you are claiming. If you want to claim that the average NFL athlete is not exceptionally bright, so what?