Church of England votes against woman bishops

[Richard Hakluyt]

I don't see what freedom of religion has to do with the rule of law. You are adopting a rather modern and very narrow definition. England has operated under the rule of law for many centuries, the fact that some of those laws were rather obnoxious is irrelevant, the point is that the place has not been run as a despotism or dictatorship. The whole point of the Civil War, for example, was that the King was not abiding by the rule of law and may have been attempting to set up an absolute monarchy, it was why he was deposed.

[Martinus]

I don't see what freedom of religion has to do with the rule of law. You are adopting a rather modern and very narrow definition. England has operated under the rule of law for many centuries, the fact that some of those laws were rather obnoxious is irrelevant, the point is that the place has not been run as a despotism or dictatorship. The whole point of the Civil War, for example, was that the King was not abiding by the rule of law and may have been attempting to set up an absolute monarchy, it was why he was deposed.

Well I have been talking more specifically about "democratic rule of law".

[The Minsky Moment]

Do any of you snot-nosed, smug monkeys ever take theology, or are all your philosophy courses restricted to the post-industrial atheists?

No, don't read up on the history of western civilization without its most influential institution or anything, that would be wrong.  AUGUSTINE WAS A HIPPO

OK but if you are going to take that line, you can't pick and choose your theological history.
The fact is that the role of women in the Christianity and very status of the Church itself was a live issue of debate and controversy from the very beginning.  It took several hundred years for the Catholic position on all those issues to become established doctrine, something that was accomplished not just by argument but also by brute force.

[Valmy]

It took several hundred years for the Catholic position on all those issues to become established doctrine, something that was accomplished not just by argument but also by brute force.

I think that has always been a problem with theology.  Unless God is going to come down and pronounce a verdict there is no way to ultimately get everybody to agree on one view on some issues outside of force.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Well I have been talking more specifically about "democratic rule of law".

Fair enough, you shortened it to "rule of law" in several posts which led to confusion. Under that more restrictive definition Britain has never been under "democratic rule of law", which leads me to doubt the usefulness of the definition.

[PDH]

Do any of you snot-nosed, smug monkeys ever take theology, or are all your philosophy courses restricted to the post-industrial atheists?

No, don't read up on the history of western civilization without its most influential institution or anything, that would be wrong.  AUGUSTINE WAS A HIPPO

OK but if you are going to take that line, you can't pick and choose your theological history.

The fact that the early church was in part nurtured by rich Roman women, many of whom led prayer and were instrumental in keeping the church alive (as well as being some of the great early martyrs), gets swept under the rug.

And emphasizing Augustine, who had serious mommy issues, doesn't help the narrative that the organizing church of the late Roman Empire was quite clearly anti-woman.

[merithyn]

I do wonder what would have been the result had women maintained the leadership of Christianity. By that I mean, that there's a theory that the reason Xianity grew and thrived was because mothers prefered the religion and taught it to their children.

[PDH]

I am not sure that it is accurate to say that women had the leadership in early Christianity, rather it is better to say that they had a larger role than has been commonly reported.

[Valmy]

I do wonder what would have been the result had women maintained the leadership of Christianity. By that I mean, that there's a theory that the reason Xianity grew and thrived was because mothers prefered the religion and taught it to their children.

I think it would have flopped.  The putting men in charge thing was more about Christianity converting to Romanness (or more accurately Ancient Worldness) than some sort of conspiracy on the part of the church in a vacuum.  As the church became more mainstream its views became more mainstream.  Of course women were also big drivers in the surprisingly long survival of paganism in the countryside as well.

[Valmy]

I am not sure that it is accurate to say that women had the leadership in early Christianity, rather it is better to say that they had a larger role than has been commonly reported.

Seriously?  This gets talked about all the time these days.

[merithyn]

I am not sure that it is accurate to say that women had the leadership in early Christianity, rather it is better to say that they had a larger role than has been commonly reported.

By leadership, I mean that mothers were the primary drivers - from what I understand - of the religion in the homes. That has, often, proven to be what maintains a religion far more so than any particular priest/priestess.

Of course women were also big drivers in the surprisingly long survival of paganism in the countryside as well.

Yes, this is what I mean.

I think it would have flopped.  The putting men in charge thing was more about Christianity converting to Romanness (or more accurately Ancient Worldness) than some sort of conspiracy on the part of the church in a vacuum.  As the church became more mainstream its views became more mainstream. 

That makes sense.

[PDH]

I am not sure that it is accurate to say that women had the leadership in early Christianity, rather it is better to say that they had a larger role than has been commonly reported.

Seriously?  This gets talked about all the time these days.

Yeah, if by all the time you also mean the people who come up to me in my class and ask me why I don't talk about the ancient matriarchal religions...and indeed, the serious scholarship focuses on the family aspect and the Patrician women financing early Christianity.  I would argue that the basic undercurrent of thought seems to still be the unbroken line from the Apostles to the Priests.

Still, there ARE the History Channel specials that seem to take the Holy Grail, Holy Blood story and run with it.

[PDH]

Remember that the early church was also extremely pacifistic, millenial to a wild degree, given to outrageous ascetic acts and martyrdom.  These things were watered down when it became legit.

[merithyn]

Yeah, if by all the time you also mean the people who come up to me in my class and ask me why I don't talk about the ancient matriarchal religions...and indeed, the serious scholarship focuses on the family aspect and the Patrician women financing early Christianity.  I would argue that the basic undercurrent of thought seems to still be the unbroken line from the Apostles to the Priests.

Still, there ARE the History Channel specials that seem to take the Holy Grail, Holy Blood story and run with it.

I agree with you here. It kind of feels like most of what we hear is the pseudo-history that a lot of women/Pagans/non-historians want to believe was the case rather than the actual history of how it all worked out.

[Razgovory]

I am not sure that it is accurate to say that women had the leadership in early Christianity, rather it is better to say that they had a larger role than has been commonly reported.

Seriously?  This gets talked about all the time these days.

Yeah, if by all the time you also mean the people who come up to me in my class and ask me why I don't talk about the ancient matriarchal religions...and indeed, the serious scholarship focuses on the family aspect and the Patrician women financing early Christianity.  I would argue that the basic undercurrent of thought seems to still be the unbroken line from the Apostles to the Priests.

Still, there ARE the History Channel specials that seem to take the Holy Grail, Holy Blood story and run with it.

Yeah, why are you skimping on the ancient matriarchal religions?