Was the Waco Massacre a failure of the US law enforcement system?

[jimmy olsen]

On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal.  But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).  The child welfare stuff was a bogus post hoc justification.  Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.

I thought they had some weapons that they converted to full auto?

[CountDeMoney]

On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal.  But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist). 

Illegally modifying as many as 50 AR-15 upper receivers illegally was still illegal, as is attempting to illegally reverse inert hand grenades.  The .50 cal may have been illegally acquired, considering none of the church members held the appropriate FFL paperwork.

The child welfare stuff was a bogus post hoc justification.  Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.

If you've ever read the affidavit for the original search warrant you'd know that's not the reason they were originally involved.  That he was assbanging little girls was just icing, but not the cake. 

And no, child sex abuse is not "strictly a state matter".  Go to fucking law school.

[Syt]

I've been wondering in the years since the Waco thing why they never made a David Koresh biopic with Weird Al Yankovic in the lead role.

[Legbiter]

Nobody was coming out alive in that one.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Yeah, the Waco raid was about automatic weapons. The Branch Davidians had ordered a ton of AR-15s and also lower receivers that were frequently bought in combination with AR-15s to modify them for automatic fire, and then there was apparently a witness who had heard automatic weapons fire coming from the compound.

Ruby Ridge is a very problematic situation. A big part of why it's hard to feel any sympathy for the guy in that situation is he was a huge racist asshole with extremist views. But the initial charges against him were highly bogus. However, instead of going to court to fight those charges he simply refused to appear. I do not believe you can blame law enforcement for taking the position that failure to appear has to be rectified, they can't simply choose to let the guy stay in his house forever just because he thinks the charges against him are bogus. Even if those charges later are proven to be bogus.

Typically in such a situation, where sure the original charge was bogus but there was a legitimate valid warrant, there is no way you don't go to prison for life after you and your compatriots kill multiple Federal agents (you do not have a right to kill people to stop from serving you a warrant you feel is invalid.) But because of the rules of engagement the Feds used, the specific actions they took, and basically the fact that many of the higher ups began to basically lie about everything made it all but impossible to convict Weaver or Harris of any crime related to the siege itself. Weaver and his family actually ended up receiving millions of dollars in a settlement.

[dps]

On Waco, while it's clear that Koresh had assembled quite an arsenal, I've never seen any evidence that any of the weapons were acquired illegally, and AFAIK simply owning that many weapons, while it might obviously make people nervous, isn't illegal.  But I could be wrong on both points (well, actually, on the 1st point I'm sure that I've never seen any such evidence, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist). 

Illegally modifying as many as 50 AR-15 upper receivers illegally was still illegal, as is attempting to illegally reverse inert hand grenades.  The .50 cal may have been illegally acquired, considering none of the church members held the appropriate FFL paperwork.

<shrug>  Apparantly, then there is some evidence that the firearms they were stockpiling were illegal.  IMO, it doesn't really matter all that much--if the cops are serving a warrant on you, if the charges are false, you fight it in court, not open fire, so even if the weapons were legal, Koresh put himself clearly in the wrong there. 

The child welfare stuff was a bogus post hoc justification.  Whatever Texas calls its agency that handles child welfare may have had some legitimate concerns, but there's no way that AFT originally got involved because of that--it's strictly a state matter.

If you've ever read the affidavit for the original search warrant you'd know that's not the reason they were originally involved.  That he was assbanging little girls was just icing, but not the cake.

That's why I said if was a bogus post hoc justification by the Feds.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the accusastions of child abuse were bogus, I'm saying that the use of those accusations later by the Feds as a justification for the original raid was bogus.

And no, child sex abuse is not "strictly a state matter".  Go to fucking law school.

Read the fucking Constitution.  And even if it were a Federal matter, it wouldn't fall under ATF, now would it?

[Razgovory]

If the children were transported over state lines it would be a federal matter.

[CountDeMoney]

To be clear, I'm not saying that the accusastions of child abuse were bogus, I'm saying that the use of those accusations later by the Feds as a justification for the original raid was bogus.

They weren't used as excuses later;  they were also in the original affidavit.  Go read it.  It's all near the end.

Read the fucking Constitution.  And even if it were a Federal matter, it wouldn't fall under ATF, now would it?

I've read it.  Your bullshit about anything "falling" under anybody isn't in there regarding the divvying up of criminal law.

What "falls" under any particular agency is only a matter of administration, not law.  Federal, state or local, law enforcement is still law enforcement.  That's like saying an ICE agent can't stop a rape in progress, or that multiple agencies can't work together in the same jurisdiction as task forces.   Stop smoking so much dope.

[11B4V]

Stop smoking so much dope

But it's legal "here" in WA state now. 

[dps]

To be clear, I'm not saying that the accusastions of child abuse were bogus, I'm saying that the use of those accusations later by the Feds as a justification for the original raid was bogus.

They weren't used as excuses later;  they were also in the original affidavit.  Go read it.  It's all near the end.

Read the fucking Constitution.  And even if it were a Federal matter, it wouldn't fall under ATF, now would it?

I've read it.  Your bullshit about anything "falling" under anybody isn't in there regarding the divvying up of criminal law.

What "falls" under any particular agency is only a matter of administration, not law.  Federal, state or local, law enforcement is still law enforcement.  That's like saying an ICE agent can't stop a rape in progress, or that multiple agencies can't work together in the same jurisdiction as task forces.   Stop smoking so much dope.

The Constitution only gives the Federal government the powers it specifically grants it, not general police powers.  The states get those.  Though, sadly, any more it seems like the Feds have any power they want, and the courts will just go along.  After all, everything's commerce, right? 

[Tonitrus]

Forget commerce, "...to provide for the common defence and general welfare..." would work better.  But the Constitution meddles pretty significantly into local criminal justice matters, at least as it pertains to how courts are to be conducted.

But police powers?  The idea of a modern police force didn't exist at the time...they would usually utilized the "militia".  One might then extrapolate from Section 8 that the FBI, et al, is effectively a permanent, Congressionally authorized "militia".

Though I won't defend the ATF, that organization should have been disbanded and rolled into the FBI a long time ago.  Hell, if anything, we should only need one federal police agency.  Roll it all into the US Marshal service.

[MadImmortalMan]

Forget commerce, "...to provide for the common defence and general welfare..." would work better.  But the Constitution meddles pretty significantly into local criminal justice matters, at least as it pertains to how courts are to be conducted.

At least the commerce clause isn't in the preamble. 

Though I won't defend the ATF, that organization should have been disbanded and rolled into the FBI a long time ago.  Hell, if anything, we should only need one federal police agency.  Roll it all into the US Marshal service.

I like that idea.

[CountDeMoney]

Though I won't defend the ATF, that organization should have been disbanded and rolled into the FBI a long time ago.  Hell, if anything, we should only need one federal police agency.  Roll it all into the US Marshal service.

I abhor the concept of other agencies being reduced to the standards of the Famous But Incompetent.

Their missions may be questionable, but I'd take an ATF or a DEA guy over two dozen FBI retards.