The next Star Trek MMORPG: Another Epic Fail?

[Grey Fox]

Berkut, because no one has an any good idea of what that could be.

[Berkut]

Why can't an MMO shake up the tank/healer/dps/buff/debuff paradigm? More importantly, why can't they ditch the basic strategy in every single MMO-type game of concentration of fire that leads to that paradigm?

While I agree with you it'd be nice to see an entirely different paradigm, it'd be rather hard to do. 

Only because so few game developers actually develop games anymore - they jsut slap a new graphics model on the same game.

But it isn't THAT hard to do, especially when you are dealing with an evolving game like a MMO. You get lots of chances to tweak things, but you can only tweak so far, so you have to at least try to create a new foundation.

And it's very unlikely on a "AAA" title, with what is likely a very expensive license for the Star Trek name.  The problem with trying something completely new is it very often fails, whereas by following the tried and true you increase your chances of the game being "fun", even if derivative.

The problem with never trying anything new is it limits your potential success.

You have to look at smaller more independent companies to come up with the innovative new concepts.  It's not going to be a Star Trek game.

it certainly could be - it's not like Cryptic is Blizzard or something -they are a small company in the overall scheme of things.

But that being said, this game does break quite a bit of new ground.  It's the only game (besides PotBS, which wasn't successful) to have both ship combat, and ground combat.

Doing two things in the exact same manner that they have already been done before is not "breaking new ground" by any definition of the term.

And when the "two" things are really just 1 thing with different graphics and a different environment (as this is looking to be - I could of course be wrong on this), then it *certainly* is not breaking new ground.

It's one of very few space MMOs.  This is a lot riskier than, say, Warhammer was, which followed very closely to the MMO standard.

And look how well Warhammer did in the long run. IN fact, I would argue that Warhammer was MUCH more innovative than this appears to be, since at least it is a game that is primarily focused on PvP combat, where the standard tank/healer/dps paradigm does not apply nearly as strictly.

What is frustrating about this is that you have a enw franchise, with a radically different environment than traditional sword and board MMO, and they look like they are going to just regurgitate the same old thing that evolved from Everquest. That is pathetic on a variety of different levels.

This is ship-ship combat, not person-person. The idea that it is reasonable to just transplant that same paradigm into space is setting the bar rather low.

[Barrister]

I dunno Berkut - I can think of a lot of supposedly "innovative" games that fell flat on their face.  MOO3.  Vanguard.  Spore.  I think it's a lot harder than you'd give it credit for.

And Cryptic may not be as large as Blizzard, they're paying a whole heck of a lot of money for the Star Trek license.  Which tends to promote rather conservative game design.

And Blizzard has never really done anything new and innovative.  WoW followed Everquest pretty closely.  Warcraft and Starcraft followed the RTS formula pretty closely.  EA of course doesn't have an innovative bone in it's corporate body, and it's pretty successful.

But anyways - that is what the game is.  I didn't make the game, so I'm not offended if you don't like it, or refuse to buy it.

[crazy canuck]

The more I read BB's posts the more I am thinking I might have to pre-order this.

You should probably pay more attention to Katmai's posts than mine, since he's actually played the game.   

I've just gotten all keyed up for this and have read as much as I could get my hands on.

I would but he hasnt given me a good review yet.

[Grey Fox]

It's hard to disagree with Berkut ascessment that Tank/Heal/DPS paradigm is rather boring & overdone by atleast 1000.

It's just that no one has any idea how else to make it work. How do we make individual players play together as a group without assigning them a role? If enemies attack all players at once, how do you increase difficulty of the encounters without making every player use exactly the same settings/items/etc?

[Tamas]

Berkut do raise good points, but the question arises: do you want a competitive computer game? Yeah, you should be innovative on this market. Or, do you want an MMO giving the chance for people to immerse into the ST world? Then sadly, going the traditional MMO way is a far safer bet for success not just financially but also in achieving that objective.

[crazy canuck]

If someone had a good way to break the traditional mold of MMOs in a financially successful way, they would not be posting it here.

[Barrister]

It's hard to disagree with Berkut ascessment that Tank/Heal/DPS paradigm is rather boring & overdone by atleast 1000.

It's just that no one has any idea how else to make it work. How do we make individual players play together as a group without assigning them a role? If enemies attack all players at once, how do you increase difficulty of the encounters without making every player use exactly the same settings/items/etc?

Aye.  You want to promote people playing together.  You want to promote people to have differentiated roles (and not have everyone identical), as it makes for more interesting gameplay.

Plus, the idea at least of 'concentrating fire' is one of the oldest and most basic combat techniques.  You want to amass a lot of damage on the enemies weakest front.

And if you want Berkut, it does sound like ground combat will be fairly innovative.  First there's a cover/expose system that I don't fully understand.

Second, and for the first time I've ever heard of in a MMO, there is: a pause button. 

And even for space, it'll be significantly different from your typical MMO in that there's the third dimension, and everyone and everything is moving.  I think it should be a lot more fluid, and reaction based, rather than a WoW encounter.

[grumbler]

Would would someone name their ship after a second-rate CFL franchise?   

Using the term "second rate" in the same sentence as "CFL" is redundent. 

[Berkut]

Berkut do raise good points, but the question arises: do you want a competitive computer game? Yeah, you should be innovative on this market. Or, do you want an MMO giving the chance for people to immerse into the ST world? Then sadly, going the traditional MMO way is a far safer bet for success not just financially but also in achieving that objective.

My beef is that by going with a combat mechanic that is grossly unsuited to space combat, it destroys the ST universe immersiveness.

hell, even the ship classes as described don't make any fucking sense from a grammatical perspective. Since when is an "escort" class ship a damage dealer? Do these people own dictionaries?

[Tamas]

Berkut do raise good points, but the question arises: do you want a competitive computer game? Yeah, you should be innovative on this market. Or, do you want an MMO giving the chance for people to immerse into the ST world? Then sadly, going the traditional MMO way is a far safer bet for success not just financially but also in achieving that objective.

My beef is that by going with a combat mechanic that is grossly unsuited to space combat, it destroys the ST universe immersiveness.

hell, even the ship classes as described don't make any fucking sense from a grammatical perspective. Since when is an "escort" class ship a damage dealer? Do these people own dictionaries?

Yeah I agree but lets wait on katmai's take on this, he is the only one actually playing this.

[Barrister]

Would would someone name their ship after a second-rate CFL franchise?   

Using the term "second rate" in the same sentence as "CFL" is redundent. 

There are definitely some very classy, well, run, first rate franchises in the CFL.   

It's just that the Argos aren't one of them.

[Barrister]

Berkut do raise good points, but the question arises: do you want a competitive computer game? Yeah, you should be innovative on this market. Or, do you want an MMO giving the chance for people to immerse into the ST world? Then sadly, going the traditional MMO way is a far safer bet for success not just financially but also in achieving that objective.

My beef is that by going with a combat mechanic that is grossly unsuited to space combat, it destroys the ST universe immersiveness.

hell, even the ship classes as described don't make any fucking sense from a grammatical perspective. Since when is an "escort" class ship a damage dealer? Do these people own dictionaries?

I dunno - the Defiant seems like a perfect example of what is being described.  Escort seems like as good a name for that role as any.

[grumbler]

I dunno - the Defiant seems like a perfect example of what is being described.  Escort seems like as good a name for that role as any.

"Escort" actually has a distinct meaning when referring to warships, though, and Defiant does not match that description.

I seem to recall something from the series that the term "escort" was simply applied to the Defiant class as a sort of political ruse, to allow the fiction that Starfleet was not massively increasing its strength by the addition of these vessels (deliberately calling offensive ships by a defensive ship title).

That would not seem to be an issue in the MMO ST world, so calling them "destroyers" or "frigates" would seem a better choice than "escort."

[Berkut]

Berkut do raise good points, but the question arises: do you want a competitive computer game? Yeah, you should be innovative on this market. Or, do you want an MMO giving the chance for people to immerse into the ST world? Then sadly, going the traditional MMO way is a far safer bet for success not just financially but also in achieving that objective.

My beef is that by going with a combat mechanic that is grossly unsuited to space combat, it destroys the ST universe immersiveness.

hell, even the ship classes as described don't make any fucking sense from a grammatical perspective. Since when is an "escort" class ship a damage dealer? Do these people own dictionaries?

I dunno - the Defiant seems like a perfect example of what is being described.  Escort seems like as good a name for that role as any.

No, it doesn't since its role is not to escort anything. This is, I realize, a very fine distinction, that a ship called an 'escort' ought to, in fact, escort things.

Now, if they created a combat system where there actually WAS a need for escorts for the cruiser or even capital ships, that would be pretty damn cool, in fact.

EVE has done a pretty decent job of creating a real space based combat system that is not based on a fantasy MMO paradigm. it can be done. The idea that it isn't possible is ludicrous, especially given that this is a known universse franchise, and that known universe does not include any examples of space combat that included ships healing one another, or "tanks".