Marty's Daily Homophobia Update - The Kirk

[Sheilbh]

Anti-gay minister the Rev Ian Watson in 'Nazi battle' outrage
Ian Watson


Ian Watson is one of many ministers opposed to the Church's first gay minister
Image :1 of 2
Mike Wade

The Church of Scotland is moving towards a schism after one of its ministers compared an increasingly determined campaign against gay clergymen to the war against the Nazis.

The Rev Ian Watson railed against homosexual lifestyles, declaring that such people would not "inherit the kingdom of God" in a sermon that religious leaders and politicians condemned as deeply disturbing.

Mr Watson is a prominent opponent of Scott Rennie, an openly gay minister whose appointment to a parish church last year has caused divisions. Mr Rennie, a divorced father of one, lives with his partner, David, and has the support of his Aberdeen Presbytery. The Church of Scotland is due to debate his appointment at its General Assembly next week after a petition was signed by almost a third of ministers pushing for all gays to be banned from the pulpit.

A motion has been lodged urging the Church not to "train, ordain, admit, readmit, induct or introduce to any ministry of the church anyone involved in a sexual relationship outside of marriage between a man and woman".

The row replicates the dispute within the Anglican Church about the ordination of gays. Anglican conservatives base their opposition to gay people on Bible texts that condemn homosexuality, although liberal members argue that many traditional teachings in the Bible, such as severe punishments for adultery, were no longer observed literally.

The strident position taken by Mr Watson's Forward Together organisation has provoked both condemnation and support from Scotland's religious community. The Rev Kenneth MacKenzie, the minister at Crathie Kirk, near Balmoral, which is attended by the Queen, said that he was disappointed that Mr Rennie's sexuality had become an issue but warned that a schism would occur if his appointment was confirmed.

"Life in the Church will never be the same again and my fear is that a sizeable minority of the clergy, and perhaps a majority of its people, may consider leaving the church, causing a rift felt in every parish."

Mr Watson posted on his blog last night a sermon he delivered on Sunday at Kirkmuirhill Church in Lanark, in which he invoked the failure of the French Army to stand up to the Nazi annexation of the Rhineland in 1938. "[Hitler] guessed correctly that the French had no stomach for a fight. If only they had, then the tragedy of a Second World War might have been avoided," Mr Watson said.

In the following 3,500 words, he invoked Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, St Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox and the Apostle Paul as he reached his rousing climax. "To claim that the homosexual lifestyle is worthy of a child of God; to demand that a same-sex partnership be recognised as on a footing with marriage; to commend such a lifestyle to others is to deny that Jesus Christ is our only Sovereign and Lord. It is to turn the grace of God into a licence for immorality," he said.

"Such people will not inherit the kingdom of God (1Cor.6:10). And therefore they must be resisted . . . Let me assure you, neither I nor like-minded minsters enjoy conflict . . . But have we learned nothing from history? Remember Hitler and the retaking of the Rhineland. He got away with it. No one stopped him. So next it was Austria, then Czechoslovakia, and then Poland and only then world war."

The sermon was greeted with outrage and disbelief by people inside and outside the Church of Scotland. Some observers questioned whether Mr Watson had infringed legislation on sexual equality. The Rev Peter Macdonald, the leader elect of the Iona Community and minister of St George's West, Edinburgh, said that he had found it deeply disturbing.

The Rev Lindsay Biddle, chaplain of Affirmation Scotland, a pro-gay group, said: "If you don't like homosexuals, then get on with it — but don't use the Bible to justify opinions."

Mr Watson defiantly defended his sermon last night. "There is no doubt that there is a conflict," he said. "I was trying to explain why I am engaged in this. People say to me, 'This is not a hill to die on', but I think it is a fight worth fighting.

"Evangelicals seek to defend the historic and orthodox Christian faith. If we don't what are we? I am a man of convictions."

THE KIRK

984 active ministers

489,000 churchgoers

14% proportion of population claiming membership

0 bishops (the Kirk does not hold with them)

200 women ministers

1 openly gay minister

1843 year of "the Disruption", which led more than a third of the Church to break away and form the Free Kirk (Free Church of Scotland)

1972 Euphemia H. C. Irvine is first woman to be ordained and then appointed as a parish minister

AD400 St Ninian began the first large-scale Christian mission to Scotland from Whithorn in the far southwest

Sources: Church of Scotland, 2001 Census

This article's a bit misleading.  This isn't like the Anglican Communion's schism at all.  Homosexual vicars is a core article of faith for Anglicanism; it's gay bishops that's controversial.  It also suggests that the Kirk is, in some ways, interesting.  I promise that's not the case.  One of the problems of not having a set list of prayers is that clergymen extemporise and there is nothing so dull as a Church of Scotland service.  It seems that instead of not believing in purgatory they've just transferred it to the world and made it so that only if you can sit through the interminable one hour long sermons are you spiritually worthy.

I always dreaded the local Minister (the Reverend Doctor Dewar) visiting my school because I knew there would be at least 30 minutes of him making up a prayer

[Martinus]

So he compared homosexuality to Hitler? 

Notwithstanding the obvious Godwin's Law fail, I wonder if he realizes that Hitler put gay people into deathcamps, along with Jews and Romas.

[Tamas]

I don't see how forcing christian priests to marry homosexuals is any different than forcing muslims to eat pork. Their medieval religion does not let them, so leave it at that, give the fags the right to marry in front of law, and be done with it.

[Alatriste]

Tamas, perhaps I'm wrong but I think no one is even thinking in forcing priests to marry gay couples. They just don't want gays to marry in any way, anywhere.

* * *

About the comparison with the "1938" militarization of the Rhineland I have two things to say: regarding the Nazi High Command=Gays analogy and regarding Watson's extremely poor knowledge of the period.

For starters, the year was 1936 rather than 1938... And the question was far more complex that having stomach for a fight or not. The main factor in French reluctance was that they had occupied Rhineland militarily in 1923 (they only left it in 1930) and the result had been an utter fiasco from every point of view, but specially in terms of public relations; the impact on British and American opinion was very negative and went far in convincing influent people that it was unfair to keep Germany disarmed.

In 1936 French generals very probably believed the German Armed Forces to be far stronger than they were but the real objection was, if the French intervened and lost they lost, but if they won they would have to occupy the Rhineland in force once again, this time indefinitely, and in consequence they would lose anyway...

It was the continuous French dilemma: if Versailles was scrapped and Germany rearmed France would want - and probably need - Britain and the US on its side, but keeping the Treaty terms intact against all German protests alienated them, and the relations amongst the old Allies were already strained enough due to the war debts problem...

[Brazen]

Thought the thread was going to be about William Shatner's offensive opinions.

[Martinus]

I don't see how forcing christian priests to marry homosexuals is any different than forcing muslims to eat pork. Their medieval religion does not let them, so leave it at that, give the fags the right to marry in front of law, and be done with it.

Uhm, what the fuck are you smoking. That has never been an argument.

There is however a movement within several British churches to allow gay marriage. Surely you are not challenging the right of reformers inside a religious institution to want to reform it.

[Eddie Teach]

I don't see how forcing christian priests to marry homosexuals is any different than forcing muslims to eat pork. Their medieval religion does not let them, so leave it at that, give the fags the right to marry in front of law, and be done with it.

Uhm, what the fuck are you smoking. That has never been an argument.

There is however a movement within several British churches to allow gay marriage. Surely you are not challenging the right of reformers inside a religious institution to want to reform it.

Meh, they should splinter off like all good Protestants do.

[Caliga]

Thought the thread was going to be about William Shatner's offensive opinions.

THIS.  THREAD!  NEEEEDS.... IMPLANTSSSSSSSSS.

[Fireblade]

Thought the thread was going to be about William Shatner's offensive opinions.

KHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCK!!!!!!!!!!!

[Josquius]

So the gays are going to fuck up all their recent gains by invading Russia?

[PDH]

As long as they stick to killing the Jews and the Gypsies, Europe will still love the gays.

[The Brain]

Don't Scots wear skirts?

[Martinus]

As long as they stick to killing the Jews and the Gypsies, Europe will still love the gays.

Can't we kill Muslims instead? I like Jews and Gypsies.

[Malthus]

Don't Scots wear skirts?

That just means they must be extra vigilant.