American Academy of Pediatrics: Benefits of Circumcision Outweigh Risks

[crazy canuck]

You don't miss what you never knew you had. 

So just cut the whole thing off just to make sure he doesnt get aids.... with that reasoning he will never miss it. 

[garbon]

There is an important distinction there BB.  You may be the worst possible parent (for the purposes of this argument only of course  ) who feeds their child crap food, sends them to a crap school and provides a crap role model.  But when your child becomes old enough to realize you are full of crap they have a choice to do things differently.  Not so with missing body part.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone can recover from what their parents did to them in childhood. There are some handicaps that are very hard to recover from.

[garbon]

You don't miss what you never knew you had. 

So just cut the whole thing off just to make sure he doesnt get aids.... with that reasoning he will never miss it. 

I don't see how you can honestly equate those two things.

Anyway, I wish my parents had decided to proceed with snipping that little bit of skin at birth.  I still have memories of the pain I felt when I later had it removed for medical reasons.

[crazy canuck]

There is an important distinction there BB.  You may be the worst possible parent (for the purposes of this argument only of course  ) who feeds their child crap food, sends them to a crap school and provides a crap role model.  But when your child becomes old enough to realize you are full of crap they have a choice to do things differently.  Not so with missing body part.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone can recover from what their parents did to them in childhood. There are some handicaps that are very hard to recover from.

Exactly, we should do all that can be done to make sure parents do not limit the choices of their children.  Being a good parent is actually the opposite.

[crazy canuck]

I don't see how you can honestly equate those two things.

That because you are looking past the logical flaw in Merry's justification that they will never miss what they never knew they had.

[garbon]

Exactly, we should do all that can be done to make sure parents do not limit the choices of their children.  Being a good parent is actually the opposite.

Your choices are pretty limited with regards to foreskin even if you keep. Only fools like C4 then go through the pain of having it removed.

[garbon]

That because you are looking past the logical flaw in Merry's justification that they will never miss what they never knew they had.

Still really aren't the same. There of course can be some missing of that bit of skin, but nowhere near the amount of missing of losing the entire organ.

[Maximus]

But what about what I said to that point?

Sorry I had to go to class before I could address this.

I don't think I agree. There are things like those you mentioned that are actively harmful and yes, tradition shouldn't be used to excuse them. But beyond that an obsession with tradition can prevent one from accepting or even seeking out new methods, practices or ideas that can be beneficial, even in small incremental ways.

[Valmy]

There is an important distinction there BB.  You may be the worst possible parent (for the purposes of this argument only of course  ) who feeds their child crap food, sends them to a crap school and provides a crap role model.  But when your child becomes old enough to realize you are full of crap they have a choice to do things differently.  Not so with missing body part.

Eh it is easier to have plastic surgery to get a new foreskin put back on than try to make it to the National Football League after being denied football until you are 18.  Or somehow gain a new first language.  I think my kids will deal.

[Malthus]

Someone should introduce CC to the "Tug Ahoy" device and the wonderful world of obsessive foreskin restorers. 

http://www.restoringtally.com/blog/2010/05/patent-tug-ahoy-foreskin-restoration-device

[Maximus]

  from that site:

http://www.restoringforeskin.org/

wow

[Barrister]

There is an important distinction there BB.  You may be the worst possible parent (for the purposes of this argument only of course  ) who feeds their child crap food, sends them to a crap school and provides a crap role model.  But when your child becomes old enough to realize you are full of crap they have a choice to do things differently.  Not so with missing body part.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone can recover from what their parents did to them in childhood. There are some handicaps that are very hard to recover from.

Exactly, we should do all that can be done to make sure parents do not limit the choices of their children.  Being a good parent is actually the opposite.

I really don't think I agree with that.  I very much want to limit the choices of my child.  I don't want him to use drugs, drop out of school, or become a Rider fan.

[merithyn]

You don't miss what you never knew you had. 

So just cut the whole thing off just to make sure he doesnt get aids.... with that reasoning he will never miss it. 

Sure, you could, but that would be a detriment to the child. Cutting off the foreskin is not.

[Razgovory]

Anyway, the burden here is not whether "benefits outweight the risks" (that would be the burden of showing that the procedure may be used on consenting adults). The burden is whether the benefits are so unequivocal and extensive (and so necessary e.g. for men in modern West), and harms so non-existent (because we are not talking about just risk of infection but e.g. decreased sexual satisfaction) that they validate a need for applying this procedure to a non-consenting child.

Circumcision was not devised as a medical procedure. It was a cultural custom that subsequently started to be justified on medical grounds, when cultural/relgious reasons no longer sufficed. The best example of this are societies, like most of Europe, where it never became a cultural phenomenon - and that are dead set against it, simply because it is unthinkable to subject children to irreversible body modifications on dubious scientific grounds that's what Jews do.

Fixed it

[Valmy]

I really don't think I agree with that.  I very much want to limit the choices of my child.  I don't want him to use drugs, drop out of school, or become a Rider fan.

Yeah I will de everything in my power to make sure my son does not convert to Mormonism or attend Texas A&M University.  Up to and including physical force.