The State of Affairs in Russia

[Admiral Yi]

Guller has a point.  If people stop trusting internet rumors our society could collapse.

[DGuller]

I'm not talking about rumors.  I'm talking about public sentiment.  The mood of the public can be manipulated by Internet, or alternatively it can be stalled by making people reluctant to take any side of the issue decisively.  If an impression is created that "reasonable people can disagree" on a subject where in fact there is a outrageous conduct that needs to be addressed, bad guys win and good guys lose.

[The Minsky Moment]

I'm not talking about rumors.  I'm talking about public sentiment.  The mood of the public can be manipulated by Internet, or alternatively it can be stalled by making people reluctant to take any side of the issue decisively.  If an impression is created that "reasonable people can disagree" on a subject where in fact there is a outrageous conduct that needs to be addressed, bad guys win and good guys lose.

In that case, lobbyists and PR guys have to be criminalized.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm not talking about rumors.  I'm talking about public sentiment.  The mood of the public can be manipulated by Internet, or alternatively it can be stalled by making people reluctant to take any side of the issue decisively.  If an impression is created that "reasonable people can disagree" on a subject where in fact there is a outrageous conduct that needs to be addressed, bad guys win and good guys lose.

Are you saying that Russia could theoretically make the view that "Russia is the good guy in the Ukraine" a mainstream belief, or that they are already doing so?  Neither of these I see as true BTW.

The best they can do is give some fodder to existing conspiracy crackpots.  But so can anyone.

[DGuller]

I'm not talking about rumors.  I'm talking about public sentiment.  The mood of the public can be manipulated by Internet, or alternatively it can be stalled by making people reluctant to take any side of the issue decisively.  If an impression is created that "reasonable people can disagree" on a subject where in fact there is a outrageous conduct that needs to be addressed, bad guys win and good guys lose.

In that case, lobbyists and PR guys have to be criminalized.

Well, when it's done internally, that's just an irreducible part of freedom of speech.  You just hope that the benefits outweigh the fact that there is Fox News out there.  I think it's a little different when it's perpetrated by a hostile foreign nation.

[DGuller]

Are you saying that Russia could theoretically make the view that "Russia is the good guy in the Ukraine" a mainstream belief, or that they are already doing so?  Neither of these I see as true BTW.

Not "Russia is the good guy", but "Ukrainian government is perpetrating ethnic cleansing" belief.  It doesn't have to be bought, it just has to weigh in on the minds of average citizens.  Once the narrative goes from a Russian invasion to a civil conflict where both sides have done nasty things, the appetite for any kind of intervention or aid goes down big time in democratic societies.

The best they can do is give some fodder to existing conspiracy crackpots.  But so can anyone.

Many can, but Russian actually do it.  In a very concerted and coordinated way.

[Admiral Yi]

But the Ukrainians are *not* totally without sin.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Are you saying that Russia could theoretically make the view that "Russia is the good guy in the Ukraine" a mainstream belief, or that they are already doing so?

they are in fact doing so already, and with at least a decent amount of success. Far too many people out there buying the Russian bs.

[DGuller]

But the Ukrainians are *not* totally without sin.

No one is, so what?

[Admiral Yi]

No one is, so what?

So the idea that you're afraid will weigh on people's minds is already weighing on my mind and should be weighing on most people's minds, and that wasn't because of a Russian twitter feed and it doesn't mean the Russians have won the social media war.

[DGuller]

No one is, so what?

So the idea that you're afraid will weigh on people's minds is already weighing on my mind and should be weighing on most people's minds, and that wasn't because of a Russian twitter feed and it doesn't mean the Russians have won the social media war.

There is a difference between knowing that no one is without a sin, and having false accusations about someone's sins out there.  One is a general vague notion, another is fact that people will think they disregarded but has in fact left some residual impression.

[Barrister]

But the Ukrainians are *not* totally without sin.

We are so!

[Malthus]

No one is, so what?

So the idea that you're afraid will weigh on people's minds is already weighing on my mind and should be weighing on most people's minds, and that wasn't because of a Russian twitter feed and it doesn't mean the Russians have won the social media war.

I suspect the idea of trolling is to simply churn so much bullshit out there, that some - at least - become convinced that the rights and wrongs of the situation are simply unknowable.

Sure, with any two parties to a conflict, there is going to be "sin" on both sides. With the Ukrainian thing, there certainly was - at least initially - a massive amount of disinformation about the alleged 'sins' of the Ukrainians, much of which was straight-out 'big lie'.

To give but one example: that the Ukrainian rebels were intent on crushing the use of the Russian language, Nazi-style (and were, in fact, mostly a bunch of Nazis). I remember reading a bunch of stories about how people speaking Russian were attacked in the streets in Kiev. Someone in the West could easily be forgiven for believing that - I mean, what do any of us know about what happens on the streets of Kiev?

People actually from Ukraine apparently know that is complete bullshit, pretty well everyone in Kiev speaks Russian as a matter of course. However, again, someone less informed may think that Russian intervention to "protect minorities" is sorta justified. 

[DGuller]

Yeah, the less someone knows about the subject, the more even obvious propaganda is having an effect.  You may fully understand that the source is total bullshit, but if there is no other piece of knowledge competing with bullshit, that is what will form your subconscious feelings about the subject.

[derspiess]

I guess Yi fell for the Russian trolling.