Elite Universities and Their Cultural and Political Dominance ?

[mongers]

What role do elite universities play in your countries political and cultural lives ?

I ask because of something both Shelf and Brazen have said, they've both bemoaned that because of other diversion in their school/college lives they didn't take study seriously and missed out on applying/going to Oxford or Cambridge University. 

Now I've met both of them and from their postings here I don't doubt that both of them are of the calibre to have studied at such institutions, but I find it a bid sad that we have this divide between Oxbridge and all the rest in this country, I'm not sure it's entirely healthy.

On finds aspects of the divide popping up in unusual places, there a tough BBC quiz program called 'Only Connect' and when the contestants are introduced there's usual a quick description of job title, academic background and possible a funny or character trait to make these egghead seem more 'normal'.
But what's weird is, only Oxford or Cambridge universities or colleges are ever mentioned, so quite a few contestants will be described as a Cambridge graduate or did PPE at Baliol, but I've yet to here anyone being described as having done X at Y or Z redbrick university.  I think the only exception was when a team was entirely composed of Exeter uni. alumni and was call that or something similar.

It's as if having been to Oxbridge the person in question need some special respect ?

So what do you think of your country's academic elite ? 

[Josquius]

heh, I'm the same. If only I had actually studied in school the way Japanese kids do I could have gone to Oxbridge...and of course if I'd been better educated on what going to university meant so I would have done fun, easy things like history and politics rather than concentrating on what I actually believed to be useful and relevant but difficult and dull (maths, physics...). It would have to be through some dodgy back door affirmative action for peons thing of course, I don't have the breeding for the front door, but it would certainly have guarantied me a job at the end of it.

I agree though that the over emphasis on Oxbridge in Britain sucks.
Hell, I hate the entire education system of overly focusing on exams rather than actually learning.
With the way things are...its a catch 22. Oxbridge is the best because it is the best. It sucks in most of the very talented folks.

Its not just in academic related things that Oxbridge is over-represented either. British comedy is highly biased towards Cambridge/Oxford (I can't remember which one it is has the footlights).

[mongers]

Oh and I came across this story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-16604050

Magdalen Oxford gets rejection letter from student

A student has sent a rejection letter to the University of Oxford following her interview for a place there.

Elly Nowell parodied the institution's own rejection letters, stating Magdalen College "did not quite meet the standard" of other universities.

Ms Nowell, 19, from Winchester, Hampshire, told the BBC the interview left her feeling like "the only atheist in a gigantic monastery."

A university spokesman said it received only a few complaints from applicants.

He added: "Of the 10,000 interviews that we conduct over the course of the admissions period it is a very low number."

'Traditions and rituals'

Ms Nowell's letter began: "I have now considered your establishment as a place to read Law (Jurisprudence).

"I very much regret to inform you that I will be withdrawing my application.

"I realise you may be disappointed by this decision, but you were in competition with many fantastic universities and following your interview I am afraid you do not quite meet the standard of the universities I will be considering."

Should the university wish to "reapply", her letter continued, "while you may believe your decision to hold interviews in grand formal settings is inspiring, it allows public school applicants to flourish... and intimidates state school applicants, distorting the academic potential of both".

She also criticised Magdalen College's "traditions and rituals", and the gap between "minorities and white middle class students".

However, the university said in a statement: "Of the seven UK students who received offers for law and joint school courses at Magdalen, only one was from an independent school."
'Media exposure'

Ms Nowell, who went to Brockenhurst College, said she applied to the university to keep her options open but now hopes to be accepted into University College London.

She said: "It was while I was at interview that I finally noticed that subjecting myself to the judgement of an institution which I fundamentally disagreed with was bizarre.

Ms Nowell's letter wished the university "every success" in the future

"I spent my entire time there laughing at how seriously everything was being taken."

But former Magdalen College student Gemma Pouncy said her state school background did not pose a problem when she applied at the university.

Ms Pouncy who is 22 and from Somerset, added: "When I went to interview I felt that I was put at ease. I felt challenged but I expected to be challenged.

"Yes I felt in awe but it made me want to study there more.

"All my exposure of the place had come through the media but it wasn't like that at all."

Ms Nowell admitted that her email was not meant to be taken 100% seriously.

She said: "Oxbridge is a fairly ridiculous and prominent elitist institution, yet unlike the monarchy or investment bankers it is rarely mocked.

"Even comedians tend to avoid Oxbridge as a subject.

"Being a successful student should depend on the student, not on whether or not a couple of academics have deemed you to shine in a twenty minute interview."

Oh and for better or worse she came from my old college.   

[Valmy]

The Ivy league is ridiculously dominant in all phases of elite life so far as I can see.  Specifically Harvard and Yale but the others have alumni in top positions all over the country.

But we also have Berkeley and Stanford and a few other elite universities that are not Ivies.

[Monoriu]

Chinese generally have great respect for academic excellence.  The name of a university carries great weight.  There is a crucial difference between Chinese and the British though - in China, an overseas institution is considered somewhat superior.  So Harvard and Cambridge are much better than the best local institutions, and an average overseas institution is better than an average local institution. 

There is some justification for this.  One because if someone has studied overseas, there is some gurantee of his English proficiency, which is a skill that is absolutely crucial but in short supply in this part of the world.  Two, many local Chinese universities will admit someone because of his family background.  People know that overseas universities do the same.  But someone's ties in HK/China are usually not that important to an overseas university.  So overseas universities are considered more trustworthy judges of character/ability. 

In HK, if you are a Harvard graduate you can pretty much pick whatever private sector office job you want.  You also pretty much have to be a graduate of the local big 3 universities to get a meaningful office job.  But the civil service is another matter.  The civil service is not allowed to pick candidates based on GPA, university name or discipline studied.  They can only use their own anon exam results and interview scores.  Even if you're a Harvard graduate, if you fail the civil service exam, you fail the exam.  The civil service interviewer is also likely to come from an average university.  People also don't pay any attention to a candidate's academic background during elections.  In HK, the civil service dominates the political scene.  Legislators usually have community organiser backgrounds. 

[mongers]

.....
But the civil service is another matter.  The civil service is not allowed to pick candidates based on GPA, university name or discipline studied.  They can only use their own anon exam results and interview scores.  Even if you're a Harvard graduate, if you fail the civil service exam, you fail the exam.  The civil service interviewer is also likely to come from an average university.  People also don't pay any attention to a candidate's academic background during elections.  In HK, the civil service dominates the political scene.  Legislators usually have community organiser backgrounds.

So you're saying some aspects of HK public life are more meritocratic ?

[Monoriu]

So you're saying some aspects of HK public life are more meritocratic ?

I didn't say that.  I am just saying that the local political scene is not dominated by elite universities despite the Chinese preference for university names. 

[garbon]

I don't have a problem with it.

[Razgovory]

I don't have a problem with it.

No shit.

[Monoriu]

My question is, again, if not elite universities, then what?  There has to be some way to pick people with reasonable cost. 

[garbon]

My question is, again, if not elite universities, then what?  There has to be some way to pick people with reasonable cost. 

Well elite universities aren't really reasonable as far as cost to the individual.

[mongers]

My question is, again, if not elite universities, then what?  There has to be some way to pick people with reasonable cost.

Perhaps the way you frame your question, betrays your bias/mindset ?

What about systems whereby people rise to the 'top' in various fields of life, by virtue of their own merits ?

[garbon]

My question is, again, if not elite universities, then what?  There has to be some way to pick people with reasonable cost.

Perhaps the way you frame your question, betrays your bias/mindset ?

What about systems whereby people rise to the 'top' in various fields of life, by virtue of their own merits ?

Well for one, it typically is one owns merits that get one into an elite university (amongst other factors like cash...).

More to your question though - how are employers supposed to figure that out? Just churn through a morass of hires until they find someone good?

[Monoriu]

My question is, again, if not elite universities, then what?  There has to be some way to pick people with reasonable cost.

Perhaps the way you frame your question, betrays your bias/mindset ?

What about systems whereby people rise to the 'top' in various fields of life, by virtue of their own merits ?

It is easy to say "by virtue of their own merits."  But exactly how do you pick someone out from a crowd?  Imagine yourself facing the resumes of thousands of people, but you only need one.  What do you do?

[mongers]

My question is, again, if not elite universities, then what?  There has to be some way to pick people with reasonable cost.

Perhaps the way you frame your question, betrays your bias/mindset ?

What about systems whereby people rise to the 'top' in various fields of life, by virtue of their own merits ?

It is easy to say "by virtue of their own merits."  But exactly how do you pick someone out from a crowd?  Imagine yourself facing the resumes of thousands of people, but you only need one.  What do you do?

Mono you're narrowing it down to job applications, the thread is about the political and cultural clout, or otherwise, of these institutions.