Scotland To Vote On Independence In Late 2014

[Warspite]

There needs to be an emotional, romantic unionism, because nationalism's above all an appeal to the heart.  You'll never beat it with patronising threats (Osborne) or a spreadsheet.

Emotional, romantic unionism? That isn't going to work; the Scots simply aren't going to buy it. This is a country, after all, with one Tory MP.

The unionists need to both persuade the Scots that there's no point in upsetting the status quo (in other words, stress the positive, pragmatic benefits of the union) and also counteract the myths that the SNP peddles about the dominance of "Westminster".

On the other hand some part of me in the back of my brain suspects the Tory Party would not be gutted if Scotland left; after all, as things stand, it would help ensure their electoral dominance for a generation, or until it pulls a reverse-Social Democrats and the frothing eurosceptics form a new party or join UKIP.

[Sheilbh]

I agree the pragmatic benefits need to be stressed.  It needs to be done in a way that highlights that these are the benefits of us being together, not benefits in the gift of England generously bestowed on Scotland.  Similarly stressing those benefits shouldn't be done by saying what Scotland will lose if they leave.  The focus needs to be on what we gain. 

But I think those arguments are more or less known and accepted in Scotland.  The myths the SNP peddle will always be believed when every Scottish politician of substance, outside of the SNP, wants to be in a UK cabinet not a Scottish one.  The only way to answer those charges, I think, is for the other parties to take Holyrood as seriously as the SNP do.  I've said it before it but the lack of talent in Scottish Labour, since Dewar's death, has at least as much to do with the SNP's rise as Salmond's skills.  I mean McLeish looks statesmanlike compared with the current lot.

I think the Scots would buy a romantic unionism.  It's an argument best made by a non-politician I think and is largely symbolic (in much the same way nationalism is) but I don't think you can simply say that the Scots won't buy it.  An example is the anger felt when the Black Watch and other Scots regiments were to be amalgamated.  There needs to be someone out there saying we're all better with a Black Watch and the Highlanders; that it's entirely right that a figure of the Scottish Enlightenment's on English banknotes; and who can point to Sherlock and says that's why we're together. 

I actually hope that some Tories in Scotland make some sort of argument.  I think it's unhealthy that they're perceived as being anti-Scottish and no centre-right party can survive if they're not even seen as patriotic.  But it has to come from within the Scottish Tory Party, in Holyrood, not from London.

I've had the same thought on the Tories. 

[Warspite]

I think the Scots would buy a romantic unionism.  It's an argument best made by a non-politician I think and is largely symbolic (in much the same way nationalism is) but I don't think you can simply say that the Scots won't buy it. An example is the anger felt when the Black Watch and other Scots regiments were to be amalgamated.  There needs to be someone out there saying we're all better with a Black Watch and the Highlanders; that it's entirely right that a figure of the Scottish Enlightenment's on English banknotes; and who can point to Sherlock and says that's why we're together. 

I see your point but the Scottish romanticism has swung utterly the other way the last thirty years, and I really don't think British romanticism has much hold at all. Britishness barely even has a hold in England, it's not a phenomenon limited to north of the border. The anger over the regimental mergers was brilliantly summed up when a politician furiously pontificating over them was asked by a journalist, "Could you name the Scottish regiments?" It was a small slice of the military and unionist communities up in arms, whereas most Scots are actually rather more pacifist than the English, and have particularly been so post-Iraq.

[grumbler]

Someone should point out that if Skyrim Scotland breaks away from the Empire Union, then the only real winners are the Thalmor French.

[AnchorClanker]

 

[Lettow77]

 France is Scotland's old and faithful friend. That isn't a bad thing.

[Neil]

France is Scotland's old and faithful friend. That isn't a bad thing.

France isn't anyone's friend, nor are they faithful.

[grumbler]

France is Scotland's old and faithful friend. That isn't a bad thing.

[mongers]

If the Union is dissolved I would like it to be for substantive reasons, not because a bunch of southern English politicians annoy the people living in Scotland with their utter incomprehension of why people living outside the home counties may see things slightly differently to Westminster.

Some southern Tory politicians don't even seem to understand how some of their constituents live in their villages.

[mongers]

..

The unionists need to both persuade the Scots that there's no point in upsetting the status quo (in other words, stress the positive, pragmatic benefits of the union) and also counteract the myths that the SNP peddles about the dominance of "Westminster".

On the other hand some part of me in the back of my brain suspects the Tory Party would not be gutted if Scotland left; after all, as things stand, it would help ensure their electoral dominance for a generation, or until it pulls a reverse-Social Democrats and the frothing eurosceptics form a new party or join UKIP.

This is my concern as well.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I don't think permanent Tory rule is a real concern if Scotland was taken out of the electoral equation. They would overplay their hand and infuriate the electorate, or possibly split. The Labour party would have to move even closer to the centre ground, but, apart from 1945, they have always been hammered at the polls whenever they suggest a spot of socialism rather than a mixed economy, so no important change there.

[Sheilbh]

I also think that Labour would still have won in 97, 01 and 05 without Scottish votes.  So the only recent election that would have a different result would be 2010. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

Indeed, and going further back..........to the 50s and 60s..............there used to be a strong Tory party in Scotland. If the Scots do gain their independence I would imagine they will soon have a strong party of the right, there are plenty of tories in Scotland it is just that Britain's right-wing party has come to be seen as an English party.

[Josquius]

Indeed, and going further back..........to the 50s and 60s..............there used to be a strong Tory party in Scotland. If the Scots do gain their independence I would imagine they will soon have a strong party of the right, there are plenty of tories in Scotland it is just that Britain's right-wing party has come to be seen as an English party.

A certain kind of English even.
There are quite a lot of people out there with views that are actually quite shockingly right wing (some of the stuff I have to give my dad a verbal slapping down for....jesus) but vote labour because...well the tories are posh twits who want to kill us all. Or something.

[Sheilbh]

Interesting report:
http://www.ippr.org/publications/55/8542/the-dog-that-finally-barked-england-as-an-emerging-political-community
Main points:

In respect of English attitudes to devolution and the union, the report finds that:
...
• While support for Scottish independence remains low – only 22 per cent say Scots  should go it alone – the English strongly support the view that the current devolved  settlement should be reformed. At fully 80 per cent, there is also overwhelming support in England for 'devolution-max' (full fiscal autonomy) for Scotland, with 44 per cent agreeing strongly. 79 per cent say Scottish MPs should be barred from voting on English laws, with an absolute majority agreeing strongly with that proposition.
• There has been a sharp rise since 2007 in the proportion of English voters who say they agree strongly with barring Scottish MPs from voting on English laws and 'devolution-max', which underlines the intensity of feeling now associated with these reforms.
In respect of English views on how they themselves are governed, the report finds that:
...
• English voters appear to want what we call an 'English dimension' to the country's politics – that is, distinct governance arrangements for England as a whole.
• At present, though, views as to what form this English dimension should take have yet to crystallise around a single alternative, with support divided between some form of 'English votes on English laws' and an English parliament.
In respect of trends in national identity, the report finds that:
...
• The proportion of the population that prioritise their English over their British identity (40 per cent) is now twice as large as that which prioritise their British over their English identity (16 per cent). 60 per cent of English respondents believe that the English have become more aware of Englishness in recent years.
• English identity appears to be stronger than British identity – or the English component of dual English-British identity stronger than the British component – across England's diverse regions (including London) and across all social and
demographic groups, with one exception: members of ethnic minorities, who place much greater emphasis on their British identity. The report, however, also points to tentative evidence of a growth in English identification within ethnic minority communities in recent years, albeit from a lower base.