Is our generation capable of pathos without auto-irony?

[garbon]

None of it made sense except all of it.

[Martinus]

I actually understand Mart's question, it is the question of the outsider unable to understand the shared emotion of the ritual group.  In the case of this ritual, there was no irony (needed or wanted, thus not present) felt by the group that was bonded in shared memory of one who had passed on.  To an impressionable 11 year old, this impacted to a great extent.

The key is the emotion in the ritual, something which is needed if it is done properly.  Any self-referencial post-modern blase attitude is not for a participant - if they feel this they are basically defined as not part of the group.  The emotion (here in a communitas-like moment) precludes the norms of day to day reaction. The closeness, in effect, creates a group.

I would guess, Mart, you have not felt this because you have not been in such a ritual situation.

Yeah I understand that (btw, thanks for taking time to understand my post rather than responding with a troll, like so many others).

I am just wondering if our generation(s) is not in the position of being a "permanent outsider" because we live in post-deconstructionist times.

Now, I understand a power of a ritual - and I am capable of being genuinely moved by it. This can be anything - from something as poignant as a friend's funeral (a catholic ceremony, no less, which is not "my community" but I was moved by it) to something as seemingly flippant as a gay pride parade (a modern day carnivale, which also has its place). But there is always the "deconstructionist censor" in the back of my head - always recognizing that I am moved on the emotional level, but deconstructing the ritual at the rational level.

My question is - is this (i) me being a sociopath, (ii) our generation being a bunch of postmodernist cynics, or (iii) people have always done that but didn't actually say that out loud before in fear of being ostracized?

[Valmy]

I am just wondering if our generation(s) is not in the position of being a "permanent outsider" because we live in post-deconstructionist times.

I guess my experience of post-modernism is just the opposite.  I now feel alot more freedom in really embracing the human experience now that I realize the constructed nature of it.  People are pretty incredible how we invent things and make them real in our experience.

[Camerus]

My sense is that such a sentiment is more closely linked to one's personality type than anything else.  Many people are capable of sincerely eulogizing someone's life or heroism.

[Martinus]

I am just wondering if our generation(s) is not in the position of being a "permanent outsider" because we live in post-deconstructionist times.

I guess my experience of post-modernism is just the opposite.  I now feel alot more freedom in really embracing the human experience now that I realize the constructed nature of it.  People are pretty incredible how we invent things and make them real in our experience.

Well, I am not saying this prevents us from participating. But I think that we will almost always lack the 100% sincerity of a true believer - we recognize these are social constructs, and as such cannot see it as anything more.

For example, to me a true believer in the situation PDH described would probably think that the spilling of expensive whisky honors the spirit of the dead, perhaps as a sacrifice to gods, or a way to let the spirit of the dead partake in it - and this is where this gesture originates from. Since we, presumedly, do not share such beliefs but still make the gesture, aren't we to an extent frauds?

[Martinus]

Another example, from my own life, is honoring/visiting the graves of the relatives.

It has a huge tradition in Poland, with people historically leaving offerings, such as flowers, candles or even food on the graves of their family and friends on special occassions, notably the All Hallows' Eve. This originates from an old pagan tradition that this somehow allows the people to commune with the spirits of the dead. Now, noone probably believes in it anymore, but people still do it - something that I find baffling and silly - I find this a completely empty ritual (which often gets me into arguments with my parents, who insist I visit the grave of my grandmother - whom I loved greatly and I miss greatly and I remember her often, but I think the ritual is silly).

And it seems many people of my generation approach such things in a similar way.

[Valmy]

Well, I am not saying this prevents us from participating. But I think that we will almost always lack the 100% sincerity of a true believer - we recognize these are social constructs, and as such cannot see it as anything more.

But those social constructs are sacred in the human experience and I embrace them as such.  I do not see how them being social constructs reduces their power.  In fact I think it makes them even more incredible.

I mean the United States is something humans made up and has no existance at all in reality.  But in the context of the human experience it is an incredibly real, meaningful, and powerful thing.  Isn't that amazing?

[Martinus]

I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.

[PDH]

Being the observer, and wanting to be in that position creates this.  Anthropologists, when first going out into the field, can have this sense of permanent observer.  Many have stated it took time to re-integrate into a position of participant.

I would assume, and no slur intended here Mart, that your self-reflection is perhaps part of the avowed narcissism you have - it becomes more difficult to accept the participation fully when one feels outside of the group always to start with (either higher or lower).  That is what the role of communal rituals are for - and truthfully buying into the emotions.

Oddly enough, I would suggest finding a spectator sport you like, and going and cheering with a like group of people - there is nothing closer to that ritual moment of people all leveled then during a positive emotive moment of such an event.  Also, it is easier to not suffer the pangs of irony.

[The Brain]

I've raised a monument to my grandfather - it is hidden in an old campsite of ours in the wilderness of northern Quebec, so it isn't really visible to anyone unless they stumble on it by chance. Somehow, that always seemed right to me.

Here's a pic of it (and of my son, named after my grandfather, looking at it):

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

A monolingual English sign in Quebec? Surely this is not legal. Does BB have to report you now?

[garbon]

I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.

[HVC]

I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.

Don't take away his self-imposed victimhood. It's the only source of comfort he has

[The Brain]

I have always enjoyed rituals and I have never been religious in any way.

[garbon]

I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.

Don't take away his self-imposed victimhood. It's the only source of comfort he has

I was just hoping we could get through one thread without an irrelevant reference to homosexuality.  If this thread was about participating in a threesome, then sure gay the shit out of the thread.  On a topic like this though, really?

[Admiral Yi]

Oddly enough, I would suggest finding a spectator sport you like, and going and cheering with a like group of people - there is nothing closer to that ritual moment of people all leveled then during a positive emotive moment of such an event.  Also, it is easier to not suffer the pangs of irony.

I had noticed the phenomenon that when your school has a winning team girls put out more, but was a little puzzled by the mechanism.  This makes sense.