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Most overrated WW2 commander

Started by Threviel, July 28, 2011, 02:27:58 AM

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Who is the most overrated commander of WW2?

Rommel
9 (17.3%)
von Manstein
0 (0%)
Guderian
0 (0%)
von Rundstedt
1 (1.9%)
Kesselring
0 (0%)
Montgomery
11 (21.2%)
Slim
0 (0%)
Auchinleck
0 (0%)
Bomber Harris
1 (1.9%)
Cunningham
0 (0%)
de Gaulle
2 (3.8%)
Eisenhower
0 (0%)
MacArthur
7 (13.5%)
Patton
11 (21.2%)
Nimitz
1 (1.9%)
Halsey
0 (0%)
Zhukov
5 (9.6%)
Rokossovsky
0 (0%)
Konev
0 (0%)
Vasilevsky
0 (0%)
Timoshenko
0 (0%)
Chiang Kai-Chek
0 (0%)
Mao
2 (3.8%)
Tito
0 (0%)
Yamashita
0 (0%)
Yamamoto
0 (0%)
Nagumo
0 (0%)
Mannerheim
0 (0%)
Jaron/other
2 (3.8%)

Total Members Voted: 51

Darth Wagtaros

Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 28, 2011, 07:08:30 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 28, 2011, 06:13:57 AMIt is the one where the result of WW2 was determined on the Russian front, where Zhukov is an utter genius who engineered the Soviet victory and where any apparent errors by Zhukov were in fact Stalin's  :D

With that sort of rating it is perfectly possible for Zhukov to both be a great general and heavily overrated.
Having a boss like Stalin or Hitler is great for a general. You can claim responsibility for every success, and for all the things that went wrong you can just claim "the crazy man" made me do it and everyone will nod their head.
That's only assuming you survive "the crazy man".
PDH!

Drakken

Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on July 28, 2011, 09:46:44 AM
That's only assuming you survive "the crazy man".

As far as I remember, no general under Hitler was executed for either incompetence or being soundly and humiliatingly beaten, even when Hitler became raving mad.  :hmm:

Viking

Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 10:03:32 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on July 28, 2011, 09:46:44 AM
That's only assuming you survive "the crazy man".

As far as I remember, no general under Hitler was executed for either incompetence or being soundly and humiliatingly beaten, even when Hitler became raving mad.  :hmm:

just for trying to arrange his early demise :contract:
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Warspite

Quote from: Malthus on July 28, 2011, 09:43:12 AM
For "general time has been kindest to", I'd vote Slim - he's like the anti-Monty: mostly overlooked at the time, historians these days tend to rate him very highly.
A pomme general highly respected in Australia, that alone should qualify him for greatness.
" SIR – I must commend you on some of your recent obituaries. I was delighted to read of the deaths of Foday Sankoh (August 9th), and Uday and Qusay Hussein (July 26th). Do you take requests? "

OVO JE SRBIJA
BUDALO, OVO JE POSTA

crazy canuck

Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
After a heavy pondering that lasted 10 seconds, I went with MacArthur.

Does anyone rate MacArther highly?

Viking

Quote from: crazy canuck on July 28, 2011, 11:50:47 AM
Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
After a heavy pondering that lasted 10 seconds, I went with MacArthur.

Does anyone rate MacArther highly?

Douglas MacArthur did.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Razgovory

Quote from: crazy canuck on July 28, 2011, 11:50:47 AM
Quote from: Drakken on July 28, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
After a heavy pondering that lasted 10 seconds, I went with MacArthur.

Does anyone rate MacArther highly?

Seedy.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Norgy

HoI games rate him.

How much operational warfare did de Gaulle really take part in? After the Fall of France, I seem to recall he was a political leader first and foremost.

Of those mentioned, I suppose one might say that Bomber Harris is "over-rated", but that would be judging the effect of the strategic bombing campaign compared to the costs in retrospect. At the time, I am sure it made perfect sense and was about the only way outside of the commando raids that the UK could strike at Germany in Europe.

Zhukov and Konev did get results, but showed a sometimes outrageous disregard for their own losses.

I'm actually not at all sure that anyone these days is over-rated, given the enormous quantity of material published discussing the pros and cons of each commander.

Maybe a write-in candidate in Sepp Dietrich, as some seem to rate his battle prowess quite highly, while it definitely wasn't great.

The Brain

Only Model could retreat from Leningrad.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Norgy


Admiral Yi

Quote from: crazy canuck on July 28, 2011, 11:50:47 AM
Does anyone rate MacArther highly?

Dugout Doug generally gets good marks for the Inchon landing.

The Brain

With Harry "now-I-want-to-nuke-and-now-I-don't" Truman as boss anyone would have looked pretty meh.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

The Minsky Moment

re Zhukov I don't see how anyone who both successfully countered Manstein and the German Army at the front and Stalin at his back, and came through all of that alive, can be overrated.  There is a reason the cheesy documentaries make a lot of the fact that he had to cope with Stalin and that is because having to cope with Stalin is about as difficult a handicap as one can imagine.  And yes, dealing with Hitler is a problem too, but then again not every German general on the list successfully did that.  eg Rommel, among others.

My votes:
1.  Rommel - had a small (alibeit important) single division command in France. The Africa campaign was a wasteful strategic sideshow which he ultimately lost.  True, in the long run it was unwinnable, but he did his side no favors by pushing well beyond his logistical capacities into Egypt in summer 42.  That's pretty much it for his tangible war record.
2.  Yamamoto - Pearl Harbor and Midway were two of the biggest strategic blunders by any side during the war.  About the best you can say is that the strategic problems he faced were so dismal it didn't really matter.
3. Patton - that degree of lack of self-control is a fatal flaw.  He is like the all-star level ballplayer that misses the key games of the season because he gets into bar fights after the game.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

The Brain

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 28, 2011, 12:36:39 PM
re Zhukov I don't see how anyone who both successfully countered Manstein and the German Army at the front and Stalin at his back, and came through all of that alive, can be overrated.

Ah yes, the uber-Wehrmacht. Are you "PanzerFanBoi123" on some other boards?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Jacob

Mao is pretty overrated by a lot of people, though maybe not Western historians.