Dutch Muslims & Jews united together

[Razgovory]

I think the methodolgy is basically that the anesthitize the animal. This does not stop pain signals, but does mean that the signals are not received. *Not*, I think, the same as being unconscious.

So they are basically saying that the claim that halal slaughter is painless i untrue. Halal slaughter does not (of course) include anesthetizing the animal.

Stunning, however, actually removes the pain signals altogether. Of course, that is only effective when it is done properly, and given the speed at which modern plants operate, it is questionable how often it is done properly. It isn't much of a solution if it only works 90% of the time because the person doing the stunning has to do it 300 times an hour, and if he screws up - to bad, animal is carted away into the process anyway. Which is what the article Raz posted suggests happens, at least in some cases.

Of course, I find the idea that kosher slaughter is somehow immune to those same efficiency pressures pretty spurious as well. They might be better, but I am sure that "kosher" slaughterhouses have their incidences of cutting corners as well.

They aren't really anesthetized.  They are smashed in the brain so they are unconscious.  At least with cows (pigs are different, but then there aren't many Kosher pig butchers).

[Viking]

Ghanem cites a 1978 study relying on EEG measurements led by Wilhelm Schulze of the University of Hanover, Germany, apparently concluding that halal slaughter was more humane than slaughter following stunning. But Schulze himself, who died in 2002, warned in his report that the stunning technique may not have functioned properly.

And he is the counter example of your New Zealand study.

In a bold response to a New Zealand study that concluded that slaughter without stunning causes pain, Dr. Grandin said that the knife in the study was shorter than those used in schechita, uncertainty whether the wound was kept open like in schechita, and the sharpening of the knives was done by a mechanical device rather than on a whetstone. It was studies like these that led to the banning of schechita in New Zealand.

http://matzav.com/dr-temple-grandin-reaffirms-humaneness-of-kosher-schechita

Temple Grandin is a well know,animal welfare activist and has even been praised by PETA.

praised by PETA = kiss of scientific death...

Grandin's criticism is about the knife being used. Her argument only makes sense if the length of the knife matters. Johnson shows that the pain continues for 2 minutes, I can't see that being consistent with a difference in knife length mattering. She does not seem to challenge his thesis, his methods or his veracity. Grandin is a specialist on animal handling, not the neural functioning of cattle.

[Martinus]

My own personal opinion is that government should make reasonable accommodation to religious practice.

But (thank God) this is not what freedom of religion means in Europe. It means you can profess your belief in a deity or deities (although also with restrictions, e.g. when you are a public official) and you can worship your deity or deities, including together with fellow believers. You do not get special exceptions from laws applicable to everyone. That would be against the rule of separation of church and state (unlike in the US, it means more than just a prohibition against establishing a state church here).

Really?

I find that somewhat hard to believe.

So observant Jews are expected to attend work or school on high holidays?  Religious conscientous objectors to compulsory military service are not allowed or excused?  No accomodations are made to muslims fasting during Ramadan?

We don't have muslims in Poland. 

[HVC]

We don't have muslims in Poland. 

Did you guys actively help the nazi's get rid of them when you got rid of your jews, or is it just a coincidence?

[Martinus]

The Jewish question

[Razgovory]

Peer Reviewed Evidence

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17972-animals-feel-the-pain-of-religious-slaughter.html

One thing i don't get, if under anethesia the body sends signals that aren't felt doesn't that mean when the animal is unconscious (through throat after the 2 seconds mentioned) you wouldn't be able to tell if it feels pain?

I haven't read the paper, so I am speculating. You can anesthesize on the brain end rather than the nerve end, that the pain signal is sent but not recieved, which seems to be the procedure described. The article refers to 2 minutes of pain signals. The muslim apologist says it takes 2 seconds for the animal to pass out. The significant content of the paper seems to be that the religious slaughter methods cause much more pain than apologists claim.

I guess you are referring to me here.  Is it fair to call you a "Fascist apologist".  After all, one of the parties that supports this is The Dutch Freedom Party (named in your article as a Xenophobic group).  One of the members of the group refers to it as having a natural tendency toward fascism.  Though you may not be referring to me, since I didn't say anything about two second (though I don't know anyone else who did either).

[Berkut]

Of course, I find the idea that kosher slaughter is somehow immune to those same efficiency pressures pretty spurious as well. They might be better, but I am sure that "kosher" slaughterhouses have their incidences of cutting corners as well.

Are there any industrial-scale kosher or halal slaughterhouses?

I thought that demand for such meat was fairly limited even amongst Jews and Muslims, so I assumed it was done on more of a craftsman scale.

Not in the US.  There was an attempt at a Kosher industrial butchery but it didn't work and they closed it.

If by "didn't work" you mean it was shut down after being exposed for pretty horrific practices that by any standards were far from humane, while at the same time Jewish authorities stated that they were perfectly kosher...then yes, that is correct.

http://www.jewishveg.com/media11.html

Now, if PETA says that kosher slaughter is generally more humane than non-kosher slaughter, I would tend to believe them - after all, they aren't exactly in the business of approving of ANY slaughter.

But I remain skeptical of the claim that we should assume that in general kosher slaughter is immune from the standard business problems of scale and efficiency. There is a huge demand for "kosher" products in the US for example, certainly large enough that it isn't being served by Rabbi Bob and his team of ninja butchers operating in some agrarian slaughter yard, where each animal is lovingly handled like a pet before it is gently put to sleep.

[Martinus]

We don't have muslims in Poland. 

Did you guys actively help the nazi's get rid of them when you got rid of your jews, or is it just a coincidence?

They didn't want to come when we were dirt poor and now we know better (rich in experiences of the Scandis for one) to keep them out as much as possible.

[Barrister]

My own personal opinion is that government should make reasonable accommodation to religious practice.

But (thank God) this is not what freedom of religion means in Europe. It means you can profess your belief in a deity or deities (although also with restrictions, e.g. when you are a public official) and you can worship your deity or deities, including together with fellow believers. You do not get special exceptions from laws applicable to everyone. That would be against the rule of separation of church and state (unlike in the US, it means more than just a prohibition against establishing a state church here).

Really?

I find that somewhat hard to believe.

So observant Jews are expected to attend work or school on high holidays?  Religious conscientous objectors to compulsory military service are not allowed or excused?  No accomodations are made to muslims fasting during Ramadan?

We don't have muslims in Poland. 

Is that really how you wish to answer my question?

[Berkut]

I think the methodolgy is basically that the anesthitize the animal. This does not stop pain signals, but does mean that the signals are not received. *Not*, I think, the same as being unconscious.

So they are basically saying that the claim that halal slaughter is painless i untrue. Halal slaughter does not (of course) include anesthetizing the animal.

Stunning, however, actually removes the pain signals altogether. Of course, that is only effective when it is done properly, and given the speed at which modern plants operate, it is questionable how often it is done properly. It isn't much of a solution if it only works 90% of the time because the person doing the stunning has to do it 300 times an hour, and if he screws up - to bad, animal is carted away into the process anyway. Which is what the article Raz posted suggests happens, at least in some cases.

Of course, I find the idea that kosher slaughter is somehow immune to those same efficiency pressures pretty spurious as well. They might be better, but I am sure that "kosher" slaughterhouses have their incidences of cutting corners as well.

They aren't really anesthetized.  They are smashed in the brain so they are unconscious.  At least with cows (pigs are different, but then there aren't many Kosher pig butchers).

No, the people doing the study anesthisized their subjects so they could measure pain signals without causing the animals undue pain. Neither kosher or stunning involves anesthesia.

Stunning is not about unconsciousness, according to the article. It literally causes pain signals to not be sent at all. It (supposedly) shuts down the nervous system altogether.

[Martinus]

It all comes back to one thing.

"Woe is us. Remember the Holocaust, you anti-semites."

They will be beating that drum for a thousand thousand years.

I must say that it is rather gratifying to have both kinds of moon-worshippers on the same side of the barricade for once. 

It's funny how these types always come out of woodwork to defend the most obnoxious and disgusting positions.

Catholics and Muslims may hate each other? Sure, but they can unite when it comes to preventing fags from marrying.
Jews and Muslims may wish each other dead? Sure, but they can unite when it comes to torturing animals.

[Razgovory]

praised by PETA = kiss of scientific death...

Grandin's criticism is about the knife being used. Her argument only makes sense if the length of the knife matters. Johnson shows that the pain continues for 2 minutes, I can't see that being consistent with a difference in knife length mattering. She does not seem to challenge his thesis, his methods or his veracity. Grandin is a specialist on animal handling, not the neural functioning of cattle.
[/quote]

I imagine the proper equipment would matter in a case like this.  Someone not trained and properly equipped can't really be expected to give good example of how the job is done.

  If I am to understand you correctly, your argument against the German study is that the captive bolt being the more humane tool is based on the captive bolt not working properly.

[Viking]

Peer Reviewed Evidence

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17972-animals-feel-the-pain-of-religious-slaughter.html

One thing i don't get, if under anethesia the body sends signals that aren't felt doesn't that mean when the animal is unconscious (through throat after the 2 seconds mentioned) you wouldn't be able to tell if it feels pain?

I haven't read the paper, so I am speculating. You can anesthesize on the brain end rather than the nerve end, that the pain signal is sent but not recieved, which seems to be the procedure described. The article refers to 2 minutes of pain signals. The muslim apologist says it takes 2 seconds for the animal to pass out. The significant content of the paper seems to be that the religious slaughter methods cause much more pain than apologists claim.

I guess you are referring to me here.  Is it fair to call you a "Fascist apologist".  After all, one of the parties that supports this is The Dutch Freedom Party (named in your article as a Xenophobic group).  One of the members of the group refers to it as having a natural tendency toward fascism.  Though you may not be referring to me, since I didn't say anything about two second (though I don't know anyone else who did either).

I'm referring to the person with a muslim name referred to in the article, not you.

[Razgovory]

Goddamn it.  Stupid quotes.

[Martinus]

I thought it was interesting that in France (I think it was in France anyway) they banned it and the courts decided that since Jews could get kosher food from other sources, it was not an imposition to ban it in France. That struck me as a rather odd legal position to take.

Not necessarily, especially if the "other sources" meant "legal import from other EU member states". A lot of bans on goods and services were overruled in the past on the grounds that they distorting the intra-community trade.

Edit: Which I guess means: Let's lobby for a pan-European anti-kosher/halal directive.