Is it time for the US to re-evaluate our commitment to NATO?

[Berkut]

If you had read the article, you wouldn't have made a comment about how we should not be surprised that countries that didn't really wan to participate don't participate, since the point was that some countries that DID want to participate could not do so effectively.

What that has to do with Russia, I don't know. If your basic point is that the only purpose of NATO is to hold off Russia, then you are simply agreeing with Gates, except that you don't see this as a problem, but actually a benefit. Which is fine - then the answer is simply "Yeah, the US probably should re-evaluate its commitment to NATO.

[Zanza]

Nothing wrong with bread and circuses. Both are very nice things to have, wouldn't mind some myself. I have an idea. Since we're paying for their defence, why don't they pay for our social welfare programs.

Who is this (potential) enemy you are defending us from?

[alfred russel]

If you had read the article, you wouldn't have made a comment about how we should not be surprised that countries that didn't really wan to participate don't participate, since the point was that some countries that DID want to participate could not do so effectively.

What that has to do with Russia, I don't know. If your basic point is that the only purpose of NATO is to hold off Russia, then you are simply agreeing with Gates, except that you don't see this as a problem, but actually a benefit. Which is fine - then the answer is simply "Yeah, the US probably should re-evaluate its commitment to NATO.

I actually had read the article (quickly), and then quickly read it again when you accused me of not reading it. There are a lot of countries in Europe--I'm neither alarmed nor suprised that many of them don't have the capability to contribute to the bombing of Libya. I'm not certain how a small country enhances their defense by becoming capable of operations on another continent.

I don't think the US should reevaluate its commitment to NATO--I think NATO is one of the key defense commitments for the US should stand by. What I think the US should evaluate is its overall military budget and the number of conflicts we are engaged in (I think a good target at the moment would be 0).

[Zanza]

Coming from the biggest non-performing NATO country, I can tell you what the political reality in Germany is: Germans really want Germany to be a big Switzerland. Happily trading, not really involved in international affairs, not even the EU, much less wars, neither in the Balkans nor in other continents. It's completely impossible for a politician to make Germany "pull its weight". I don't think the average German would give a fuck if NATO is dissolved. We don't feel threatened by anybody and there is friends all around us, so what exactly do we gain from NATO membership?

[Admiral Yi]

Plus you'd be patrolling the gulf of Aden etc without NATO's help.

I don't see why.  Europe is more dependent on Gulf oil than the US is.

NATO has outlived its original purpose.  No member state faces the risk of invasion of their territory (possible exception of the Baltic states).  Withdraw the remaining US military units in Europe.  Cut a seperate deal with Germany to maintain Rhein-Main.  Let the Europeans find the ways and means to deal with any issues that flare up on their border lands.

[Valmy]

Coming from the biggest non-performing NATO country, I can tell you what the political reality in Germany is: Germans really want Germany to be a big Switzerland. Happily trading, not really involved in international affairs, not even the EU, much less wars, neither in the Balkans nor in other continents. It's completely impossible for a politician to make Germany "pull its weight". I don't think the average German would give a fuck if NATO is dissolved. We don't feel threatened by anybody and there is friends all around us, so what exactly do we gain from NATO membership?

Thank you.

[Zanza]

@Gulf of Aden: Operation Atalanta is an European Union-led mission anyway so even without NATO, European countries would patrol there as they have a vital interest in keeping this important sealane to Asia open.

[Tamas]

While this Gates fellow makes a fair point, he could not have made it at a worse time. With a bit of hyperbole, I think the EU is close to be struggling to survive as a political entity, and for sure as hell struggling to maintain any hope of progressing on the road to a federation that could be a major international player in the future.

Under present circumstances, it would be impossible to sell increased military spending to the people, unless of course the EU would fall apart for good and we would resume our long tradition of shredding each other to bits.

[crazy canuck]

I think the EU is close to be struggling to survive as a political entity, and for sure as hell struggling to maintain any hope of progressing on the road to a federation that could be a major international player in the future.

You say that like its a bad thing.

Wouldnt Germany be a much better economic engine if it wasnt fettered with the likes of Greece and Portugual?

[The Minsky Moment]

What did you fix by creating a ridiculous hyperbole?

The mistaken notion that spending on defense is ipso facto wasteful or less desirable than other forms of government spending.

[Zanza]

Wouldnt Germany be a much better economic engine if it wasnt fettered with the likes of Greece and Portugual?

That's a two-edged sword really. On the one hand we benefit from having a currency with a lower value than the deutschmark would have, on the other hand the bailouts will likely come at a gigantic cost...

By the way, Croatia was just given green lights to join by 2013. So I would say the stories about the EU's imminent collapse are premature. However, integration has certainly slowed down considerably. Let's see if the aftermath of the financial crisis will lead to another round of integration, this time fiscal.

[Valmy]

Wouldnt Germany be a much better economic engine if it wasnt fettered with the likes of Greece and Portugual?

Um isn't it sorta hard to avoid being fettered to nations close to it?  Might as well have some control over them.

[Zanza]

With a bit of hyperbole, I think the EU is close to be struggling to survive as a political entity, and for sure as hell struggling to maintain any hope of progressing on the road to a federation that could be a major international player in the future.

Well, at least we have time and resources to sort out the really important questions... 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/10/world/europe/10hamsters.html?_r=2

PARIS — France was punished on Thursday for not taking proper care of its hamsters.

The Court of Justice in Luxembourg, the European Union's highest court, ruled Thursday that France had failed to protect the Great Hamster of Alsace, sometimes known as the European hamster, the last wild hamster species in Western Europe. If France does not adjust its agricultural and urbanization policies sufficiently to protect it, the court said, the government will be subject to fines of as much as $24.6 million.

The Great Hamster, which can grow up to 10 inches long, has a brown-and-white face, white paws and a black belly. There are thought to be about 800 left in France, with burrows in Alsace along the Rhine. That is an improvement: the number had dropped to fewer than 200 four years ago, according to figures from the European Commission, which brought the lawsuit in 2009.

The Great Hamster likes grass and crops like alfalfa, but these have largely been replaced by corn, which is not ripe in the spring when the hamster awakens from six months of hibernation, eager to eat and mate. It must make longer and more hazardous journeys as its grazing area shrinks because of new highways and housing developments.

"Protection measures for the Great Hamster put in place by France were insufficient" in 2008 "to ensure the strict protection of the species" in accordance with European law, the court ruled. The hamster has been protected legally since 1993, and while it is prevalent in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, it is thought to exist in Western Europe only in Alsace.

Farmers have generally considered the hamster to be a farmyard pest, and before it was protected they flooded its burrows and used poison and traps to kill it.

Jean-Paul Burget, president of Sauvegarde Faune Sauvage, or Safeguard Wildlife, in Wittenheim, in Alsace, said in a telephone interview that "we are very happy," and that "European rules must be followed." France "now must work to raise the population of hamsters up to 1,500," which would be enough to preserve the species, he said, and the prefecture of Alsace "must stop some urbanization projects and restore" older agreements to grow certain cereals that hamsters eat.

Mr. Burget's association filed an initial complaint to the European Commission on behalf of the Great Hamster in 2006.

The court did, however, reject the commission's complaint about the use of nitrates, on the grounds that the plaintiff had failed to demonstrate "to the requisite legal standard" a link between the use of nitrates in agriculture and the "deterioration or destruction of the breeding sites or resting places of the European hamster."

The chief of staff for Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet, France's minister of ecology, sustainable development, transport and housing, said Thursday evening that Ms. Kosciusko-Morizet would make no comment on the ruling.

[crazy canuck]

Wouldnt Germany be a much better economic engine if it wasnt fettered with the likes of Greece and Portugual?

Um isn't it sorta hard to avoid being fettered to nations close to it?  Might as well have some control over them.

I dont understand your point. Absent its obligations under the various agreements that create the EU how would Germany be fettered economically by Greece and Portugual?

[Valmy]

I dont understand your point. Absent its obligations under the various agreements that create the EU how would Germany be fettered economically by Greece and Portugual?

I am not sure I understand yours.  Dumping NAFTA would free Canada to grow unfettered by the USA?  As if somehow European countries are not already fettered to each other.