Did too much inbreeding end the Spanish Habsburg line?

[Drakken]

Thank you very much, Captain Obvious.

The real question should be: Why did the Austrians Habsburgs survive until 1918?

Tremere blood.

I'd say Etrius, as Tremere is now a slumbering, giant white worm.

And Meerlinda, what a MILF!...

[garbon]

The problem with the standard system is that it isn't adapted to the fact that the Habsburgs were relentlessly incesting from uncle to niece or between first-degree cousins.

Actually, it would work fine.

[Valmy]

Thank you very much, Captain Obvious.

The real question should be: Why did the Austrians Habsburgs survive until 1918?

Didn't they start marrying smarter genetically after the Spanish branch died out?  They seem to have married minor German dynasties after that.

Anyway the Austrian Habsburgs are still going strong except for that little not being monarchs anymore thing.

[Syt]

Except that, that system at least shows an x between parents.  There is no x in this system.

Nitpicker. I have no idea what variants of schematics exist in modern genetics, but I guess if they made such a study they knew what they were doing.

[garbon]

Nitpicker. I have no idea what variants of schematics exist in modern genetics, but I guess if they made such a study they knew what they were doing.

Nein. My point from the beginning is that it was most confusing to have siblings and spouses virtually indistinct from one another.  The only way to note who was married and who was not is to trace up from the children.

[Drakken]

Didn't they start marrying smarter genetically after the Spanish branch died out?  They seem to have married minor German dynasties after that.

They still married first-degree cousins, though. Sissi's mother was Franz Joseph's aunt.

[Syt]

Nitpicker. I have no idea what variants of schematics exist in modern genetics, but I guess if they made such a study they knew what they were doing.

Nein. My point from the beginning is that it was most confusing to have siblings and spouses virtually indistinct from one another.  The only way to note who was married and who was not is to trace up from the children.

Yeah, fuck you too.

[Valmy]

Didn't they start marrying smarter genetically after the Spanish branch died out?  They seem to have married minor German dynasties after that.

They still married first-degree cousins, though. Sissi's mother was Franz Joseph's aunt.

Yes but they were not marrying first cousins from the same branch over and over again.  So at least there was a bit more genetic diversity than before.

[garbon]

Yeah, fuck you too.

Unfortunately, and I'm sure the geneticists will agree, our copulation will not result in offspring.

[grumbler]

Was such a developed study really needed on something that was, well, obvious to anyone remotely knowledgeable about the Habsburgs?

What is obvious is that the extinction of the Habsburg line is Spain was due to the same cause as the extinction of the Stuart line in England 14 years later: very high infant mortality and a high rate of stillborn children.  Queen Anne, for instance, was 17 times pregnant and gave birth six times, but all of her children predeceased her.  She was not at all closely related to the Habsburgs.

Ditto, Charles II of Spain had 3 older brothers, but none of them lived log enough to take the throne.  Charles II's own lack of an heir wouldn't have doomed the dynasty had there been nephews.

Given the almost identical results for the Spanish Habsburgs and the non-Habsburg-like Stuarts, it is hard to argue that Habsburg-style breeding caused the extinction of dynasties.

[Ed Anger]

Queen Anne, for instance, was 17 times pregnant

Her vagina was a clown carriage.

[Syt]

Was such a developed study really needed on something that was, well, obvious to anyone remotely knowledgeable about the Habsburgs?

What is obvious is that the extinction of the Habsburg line is Spain was due to the same cause as the extinction of the Stuart line in England 14 years later: very high infant mortality and a high rate of stillborn children.  Queen Anne, for instance, was 17 times pregnant and gave birth six times, but all of her children predeceased her.  She was not at all closely related to the Habsburgs.

Ditto, Charles II of Spain had 3 older brothers, but none of them lived log enough to take the throne.  Charles II's own lack of an heir wouldn't have doomed the dynasty had there been nephews.

Given the almost identical results for the Spanish Habsburgs and the non-Habsburg-like Stuarts, it is hard to argue that Habsburg-style breeding caused the extinction of dynasties.

Well, what the study seems to say, though, is not that inbreeding was the sole cause but that a number of hereditary deseases that accumulated in Charles II made it more likely.

In the light of the knowledge of the current clinical genetics and on information gathered by the historians on the health of Charles II we might speculate on the origin of his illness. Although we recognize that it is highly speculative, some of the health problems suffered by Charles II could have been caused by the action of detrimental recessive genes given his high inbreeding coefficient (F = 0.254) with 25.4% of his autosomal genome expected to be homozygous. In this sense, the simultaneous occurrence in Charles II of two genetic disorders determined by recessive alleles, combined pituitary hormone deficiency (CPHD, OMIM 26260) and distal renal tubular acidosis (dRTA, OMIM 602722), could explain an important part of his complex clinical profile.

[Drakken]

Given the almost identical results for the Spanish Habsburgs and the non-Habsburg-like Stuarts, it is hard to argue that Habsburg-style breeding caused the extinction of dynasties.

Huh, James II had a son and Charles II had countless bastards, and the majority of these scions had survived. It's the rotten womb of the latter's Queen and the Catholicism of the former that extinguished the Stuart line. In other words, circumstancial events.

[garbon]

Huh, James II had descendants and Charles II had countless bastards, and the majority of  these scions survived. It's the rotten womb of the latter's Queen and the Catholicism of the former that extinguished the Stuart line.

Yeah I don't think childbirth was the reason the Stuart dynasty was toppled.

[Martim Silva]

What is obvious is that the extinction of the Habsburg line is Spain was due to the same cause as the extinction of the Stuart line in England 14 years later: very high infant mortality and a high rate of stillborn children.  Queen Anne, for instance, was 17 times pregnant and gave birth six times, but all of her children predeceased her.  She was not at all closely related to the Habsburgs.

Ditto, Charles II of Spain had 3 older brothers, but none of them lived log enough to take the throne.  Charles II's own lack of an heir wouldn't have doomed the dynasty had there been nephews.

Given the almost identical results for the Spanish Habsburgs and the non-Habsburg-like Stuarts, it is hard to argue that Habsburg-style breeding caused the extinction of dynasties.

QFT. There is no direct link that relates inbreeding with the problems the Habsburgs had with their spanish line.

In fact, they just had one genetically bad monarch, Carlos II. If that is a result of inbreeding, then should we assume that every couple that has a genetically defective child is inbred?

Besides, if close marriages caused genetical problems like it is suggested, then muslim monarchies would have crumbled long ago - marriage between first cousins is the preferred marriage in Arabia.

Also, remember that the Egyptian Pharaohs always married their sisters - yet, the lines of Pharaohs remained just as stable (or even more so) than other dynasties, century after century.

The inbreeding idea should be ruled out just by pointing out that, for 99% of mankinds' History, Humans lived in clannic groups of 30-odd people, which always interbred. If marrying close relatives unavoidably led to genetical problems, then we as a species simply could not exist today - we would have died out long ago.

(ditto for animals - I think most of you have already realized that Chimpanzees and Gorillas have been living in close knit groups and all procreate with their close relatives for many millennia now, with no problems. When was the last time you heard of a Gorilla searching for 'brides' outside his group?)