Why can't I build heavy cruisers? HOI2DD

[Neil]

Why would you want to build a heavy cruiser?  Either a light cruiser or a dreadnought is what you should be building.

[jimmy olsen]

Why would you want to build a heavy cruiser?  Either a light cruiser or a dreadnought is what you should be building.

Dreadnoughts are too expensive and take forever to build, I can build three cruisers in the time it takes to build one battleship.

[Neil]

Why would you want to build a heavy cruiser?  Either a light cruiser or a dreadnought is what you should be building.

Dreadnoughts are too expensive and take forever to build, I can build three cruisers in the time it takes to build one battleship.

OK, but why not build light cruisers?  A light cruiser is more powerful and effective in combat than a heavy cruiser.

[grumbler]

OK, but why not build light cruisers?  A light cruiser is more powerful and effective in combat than a heavy cruiser.

Admiral Doorman might disagree.

In a night/limited visibility fight, you are probably right.  In daylight with vis over 10 miles, you wouldn't be.

[jimmy olsen]

Why would you want to build a heavy cruiser?  Either a light cruiser or a dreadnought is what you should be building.

Dreadnoughts are too expensive and take forever to build, I can build three cruisers in the time it takes to build one battleship.

OK, but why not build light cruisers?  A light cruiser is more powerful and effective in combat than a heavy cruiser.

Why? 

One would think with heavier guns and a longer range the Heavy Cruiser would be.

Anyways, it's not like I'm not building light cruisers, I'm building both. Read the AAR.

[Neil]

Why? 

One would think with heavier guns and a longer range the Heavy Cruiser would be.

Anyways, it's not like I'm not building light cruisers, I'm building both. Read the AAR.

A 6" gun is effective out to about 22-24 thousand yards, while an 8" gun can fire out to about 30 thousand yards.  However, it was fairly uncommon from cruiser engagements to take place at extremely long range.

Now, eight RN 8" guns have a throw weight of 2048 lbs, while twelve RN 6" guns have a throw weight of 1344 lbs.  However, the 8" gun would fire at about 3 salvos per minute, while the 6" gun would fire at twice that.  With the smaller gun, you're trading a slight loss in range for a slight increase in throw weight per minute and a large increase in rate of fire.  A light cruiser also usually has a small speed advantage, allowing it to control the engagement.

[Neil]

OK, but why not build light cruisers?  A light cruiser is more powerful and effective in combat than a heavy cruiser.

Admiral Doorman might disagree.

Why?  He had heavy both types of cruisers at his disposal.  I would say that Doorman would tell me not to get into a night battle with the Japanese before the advent of radar.

[jimmy olsen]

Why? 

One would think with heavier guns and a longer range the Heavy Cruiser would be.

Anyways, it's not like I'm not building light cruisers, I'm building both. Read the AAR.

A 6" gun is effective out to about 22-24 thousand yards, while an 8" gun can fire out to about 30 thousand yards.  However, it was fairly uncommon from cruiser engagements to take place at extremely long range.

Now, eight RN 8" guns have a throw weight of 2048 lbs, while twelve RN 6" guns have a throw weight of 1344 lbs.  However, the 8" gun would fire at about 3 salvos per minute, while the 6" gun would fire at twice that.  With the smaller gun, you're trading a slight loss in range for a slight increase in throw weight per minute and a large increase in rate of fire.  A light cruiser also usually has a small speed advantage, allowing it to control the engagement.

How does the thicker armor factor in?

And comment on my AAR

I think you'd like the scenario I've constructed.

[Neil]

Why? 

One would think with heavier guns and a longer range the Heavy Cruiser would be.

Anyways, it's not like I'm not building light cruisers, I'm building both. Read the AAR.

A 6" gun is effective out to about 22-24 thousand yards, while an 8" gun can fire out to about 30 thousand yards.  However, it was fairly uncommon from cruiser engagements to take place at extremely long range.

Now, eight RN 8" guns have a throw weight of 2048 lbs, while twelve RN 6" guns have a throw weight of 1344 lbs.  However, the 8" gun would fire at about 3 salvos per minute, while the 6" gun would fire at twice that.  With the smaller gun, you're trading a slight loss in range for a slight increase in throw weight per minute and a large increase in rate of fire.  A light cruiser also usually has a small speed advantage, allowing it to control the engagement.

How does the thicker armor factor in?

It generally doesn't.  Both types of cruisers are generally lightly armoured enough that either shell will penetrate.  Moreover, there usually isn't really all that great a difference in the armour anyways.

[Razgovory]

Hey Tim, I'm thinking of starting up this old dog and playing as the Reds.  Any idea what mods I should load on this game?

[Neil]

Hey Tim, I'm thinking of starting up this old dog and playing as the Reds.  Any idea what mods I should load on this game?

What does that have to do with cruisers?

[grumbler]

How does the thicker armor factor in?

We really are talking about comparing 10,000 ton heavy cruisers against 10,000 ton light cruisers, in which case they will be equivalently armored.

There is a reason why there was a hiatus in building the 8" cruiser - it was because everyone realized that the few circumstances in which the superior range and punch of the 8" gunl outweighed the superior rate of fire of the 6" gun were few and far between.

The Japanese generally conceded that their re-arming of the Haguros and Aobas was a mistake. The Battle of the Java Sea is the only battle I can think of where the heavies managed to outfight the lights, and that was because the weather cooperated and there was no air present to disturb the spotting planes of the Japanese heavy cruisers.

[jimmy olsen]

Hey Tim, I'm thinking of starting up this old dog and playing as the Reds.  Any idea what mods I should load on this game?

All the Russia's is an awesome mod, although you won't be playing the Reds there.

How about the Kaiserriech mod? You can play the Combined Syndicates of America and fight the Second American Civil War. They're kind of like the Reds.

If you really want a challenge as the Reds, play the Turtledove World War beta. The Soviet strategic situation seems untenable to me.

[Neil]

There is a reason why there was a hiatus in building the 8" cruiser - it was because everyone realized that the few circumstances in which the superior range and punch of the 8" gunl outweighed the superior rate of fire of the 6" gun were few and far between.

It's interesting to note that other than the Americans (who could afford to be conservative and wasteful) and the Germans (who had no idea what they were doing), nobody built any heavy cruisers after the early 1930s.  I suppose you could take into account the rearming of the Mogamis and the redesign of the Tones, but that was part of the whole Japanese 'light battlecruiser' concept, and Japanese surface thinking was somewhat odd.  Even the American wartime heavy cruisers were pretty much AA boats.  The idea of a heavy cruiser as a surface combattant was largely gone by the the late 30s, and war experience bore that out.

[jimmy olsen]

There is a reason why there was a hiatus in building the 8" cruiser - it was because everyone realized that the few circumstances in which the superior range and punch of the 8" gunl outweighed the superior rate of fire of the 6" gun were few and far between.

It's interesting to note that other than the Americans (who could afford to be conservative and wasteful) and the Germans (who had no idea what they were doing), nobody built any heavy cruisers after the early 1930s.  I suppose you could take into account the rearming of the Mogamis and the redesign of the Tones, but that was part of the whole Japanese 'light battlecruiser' concept, and Japanese surface thinking was somewhat odd.  Even the American wartime heavy cruisers were pretty much AA boats.  The idea of a heavy cruiser as a surface combattant was largely gone by the the late 30s, and war experience bore that out.

They seem to be useful in game though, and that's all I'm concerned with.