Game of Thrones begins....

[Phillip V]

Just had a thought, Berkut:  what if Sansa deliberately set up Jon (and Rickon) in cooperation with Littlefinger?  Rickon, of course, stood in the way of her becoming the Lady of Winterfell.  Jon, with a loyal army, was a counterweight to anything Sansa and Littlefinger wanted to do.  If that army was mostly wiped out, though, Jon is a nobody any more. Sansa has the Stark name, not Jon.  It could have been Sansa telling Littlefinger not to attack until she joined Littlefinger.

Could Sansa now be that cold-blooded?  What she did to Ramsay may be more telling than we knew.

That would also absolve Jon of a lot of the blame for the battle plan misfiring.  She didn't really tell him what she thought Ramsay was going to do to bait Jon (nor even that Ramsay WAS going to bait Jon).

I think I'd like that plot twist a lot.

Smart Sansa consideration:

1.  Sansa rightly does not trust Jon Snow militarily or politically.  She had not seen the boy for years, and he is a bastard she never liked; a bastard that could rival her for the throne.  Sansa knows firsthand what a bastard could do to become legitimate and gain power (Ramsay).  Jon does not consult her on high matters and clearly has emotional problems.  He already got himself killed and now leads a ragtag band of wildling savages.  What viewer has been inspired by Jon this season to win anything?

2.  Sansa sent a last minute letter to Littlefinger, but there was no immediate answer or guarantee that the Knights of the Vale would arrive.  Even if she did notify Jon, the boy would have likely screwed up with the additional information.  He emotionally failed at the beginning of the battle by falling for Ramsay's psychological tricks just as Sansa warned.  Instead, Jon's carelessness led to Ramsay's overconfidence led to Littlefinger/Sansa's surprise routing of the Boltons.

3.  Intentions aside, the destruction of Jon loyalists (the wildlings), death of Rickon (last known Stark male heir), and triumph of Sansa loyalists (Knights of the Vale) now places Sansa as the strongest leader in the North.


Smart Littlefinger consideration:

Remember the royal decree last season making Littlefinger the Warden of the North if he captures Winterfell...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lcx8gAM6wM

[grumbler]

My theory also gives a completely different light to the scene at Castle Black where Sansa browbeats Jon into launching the campaign against Winterfell when he doesn't want to.  Especially the part where she emphasizes that the North will rally around him as the son of Ned Stark, rather than around her as a Stark.

[viper37]

Smart Littlefinger consideration:

Remember the royal decree last season making Littlefinger the Warden of the North if he captures Winterfell...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lcx8gAM6wM

that's a very good point.  I wonder if Littlefinger still wants Cersei's deal, given that she has near zero influence now that the High Sparrow has taken over King's Landing.
He might keep it in reserve for later, still play the snake, wait for the opportune moment.

[Sophie Scholl]

My theory also gives a completely different light to the scene at Castle Black where Sansa browbeats Jon into launching the campaign against Winterfell when he doesn't want to.  Especially the part where she emphasizes that the North will rally around him as the son of Ned Stark, rather than around her as a Stark.

I quite like this theory!  I hope the writers have the will make such bold advancements in characters.  I'm hoping the angry vengeful Daenerys wasn't a brief flash in the pan but a sign of things to come as well.  I want more moral greyness and conflicted heroes, not clear cut good and evil.

[grumbler]

I quite like this theory!  I hope the writers have the will make such bold advancements in characters.  I'm hoping the angry vengeful Daenerys wasn't a brief flash in the pan but a sign of things to come as well.  I want more moral greyness and conflicted heroes, not clear cut good and evil.

I don't remember who first said something like "the essence of tragedy is the human heart in conflict with itself," but it is the basis for most fiction I enjoy. 

It would be way cool if Sansa suffered from this blight, and it was Arya who rescued her from it (after committing atrocities beyond Sansa's reckoning).

[Berkut]

Just had a thought, Berkut:  what if Sansa deliberately set up Jon (and Rickon) in cooperation with Littlefinger?  Rickon, of course, stood in the way of her becoming the Lady of Winterfell.  Jon, with a loyal army, was a counterweight to anything Sansa and Littlefinger wanted to do.  If that army was mostly wiped out, though, Jon is a nobody any more. Sansa has the Stark name, not Jon.  It could have been Sansa telling Littlefinger not to attack until she joined Littlefinger.

Could Sansa now be that cold-blooded?  What she did to Ramsay may be more telling than we knew.

That would also absolve Jon of a lot of the blame for the battle plan misfiring.  She didn't really tell him what she thought Ramsay was going to do to bait Jon (nor even that Ramsay WAS going to bait Jon).

I think I'd like that plot twist a lot.

I don't think I would "like" it for a few different reasons, but at least it would show that the writers were actually thinking, rather than just spitting back a bunch of lazy crap - I would not complain about it being crappy writing.

Basically, I would not much care for a Sansa that has become just as bad as Littlefinger or even Ramsay. We want Sansa to become a calculating, manipulative player of the game who is as good at as Littlefinger, but still retain some semblance of basic humanity and to be working towards basically positive ends. But that is an objection based on my desire for the her arc to end in a certain place, not a complaint about poor writing.

[Berkut]

My theory also gives a completely different light to the scene at Castle Black where Sansa browbeats Jon into launching the campaign against Winterfell when he doesn't want to.  Especially the part where she emphasizes that the North will rally around him as the son of Ned Stark, rather than around her as a Stark.

I quite like this theory!  I hope the writers have the will make such bold advancements in characters.  I'm hoping the angry vengeful Daenerys wasn't a brief flash in the pan but a sign of things to come as well.  I want more moral greyness and conflicted heroes, not clear cut good and evil.

Sansa betraying both of her brothers and intentionally getting them killed isn't really very grey...

[Siege]

About running in straight line from Ramsay, Rickon is still a kid, have no military experience like most of the other characters, and he doesn't really know Ramsay or Jon Connor, i mean , Jon Snow.

He does what 90 percent of the people in this forum would do when in panic running for their lives: run in straight line. And then, zigzag would get him a volley instead of a single arrow. Still bad from Rickon. Rickon mistake was not running straight, but getting himself captured. Once that happens, he is done.

The Bolton shield wall was the most stupid thing i have seen in a while. Almost as bad as Aragorn letting his little army get surrounded oitside the Black Gates.
Shield walls are a defensive formation. There is zero evidence of ever being used historically as an offensive formation by surrounding the enemy, because the only thing they need to do is to charge the side of the "envelopment" with the shields on the wrong side. And don't mention Cannae, that was nothing like this, more like plugging the sides and rear while letting the enemy center keep pushing forward.

[Habbaku]

 

https://twitter.com/BetterCallLF/status/745951609776115716

"Ned Stark arrives to take back Winterfell"

[crazy canuck]

Just had a thought, Berkut:  what if Sansa deliberately set up Jon (and Rickon) in cooperation with Littlefinger?  Rickon, of course, stood in the way of her becoming the Lady of Winterfell.  Jon, with a loyal army, was a counterweight to anything Sansa and Littlefinger wanted to do.  If that army was mostly wiped out, though, Jon is a nobody any more. Sansa has the Stark name, not Jon.  It could have been Sansa telling Littlefinger not to attack until she joined Littlefinger.

Could Sansa now be that cold-blooded?  What she did to Ramsay may be more telling than we knew.

That would also absolve Jon of a lot of the blame for the battle plan misfiring.  She didn't really tell him what she thought Ramsay was going to do to bait Jon (nor even that Ramsay WAS going to bait Jon).

I think I'd like that plot twist a lot.

The problem with that theory is Sansa tried to tell Jon that he didn't have enough troops and she tried to warn Jon that Bolton would lay a trap for him.

Nothing absolves Jon from blame for the battle plan misfiring.  Jon didn't follow the battleplan at all.  He is the one he emphasized that it was all important that Bolton come to his line so that he could trap Bolton.  Instead he acted like an idiot because he saw what he already knew was a likely outcome of his decision to fight.

There is no good way to resolve the terrible writing in that episode.

[Razgovory]

I'd like to point out that in the middle ages, battles rarely had plans.  For most commanders having everyone attack in the same direction was hard enough.

[The Brain]

I'd like to point out that in the middle ages, battles rarely had plans.  For most commanders having everyone attack in the same direction was hard enough.

9/11 was planned in some detail.

[Habbaku]

Predictions for tonight:

[spoiler]R+L=J confirmed.
New Queen in the North (Sansa)
Sept of Baelor go 'splode.
Tommen almost certainly dies.
Little Birds stab Kevan and Pycelle, (possibly even Qyburn?) under the returned-guidance of Varys.
Daenarys finally heads to Westeros with her army.
Melisandre either dies at Jon's behest or performs a miracle to save herself.
Riverlands sees a Frey bloodbath (holding out for some Manderly or show-version of him).
Jaime escapes the bloodbath in the nick of time.
Cersei begins her reign as Mad Queen over the remnants of King's Landing thanks to the power vacuum.
Wall comes down?[/spoiler]

[crazy canuck]

You have been pretty accurate all the way along.  I don't have any guesses myself.  I just hope that we get a good finale after the last few episodes.

[Sophie Scholl]

I'd like to point out that in the middle ages, battles rarely had plans.  For most commanders having everyone attack in the same direction was hard enough.

The battles during the Wars of the Roses era most certainly had plans for the most part, it was the sticking to those plans that proved difficult.  There was a lot of maneuvering and positioning of troops and tactical skill used by commanders on both sides before battles and occasionally in battle.  Considering that was one of the main eras used by GRR to draw inspiration from, I think it is relevant.