[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Malthus]

I could see him easily moving from Toronto to Montreal's west island.  I don't think he would survive in Quebec city though

Well, I'd have to learn to be a tour guide of a Quebec bureaucrat. 

[Valmy]

Yes, which is sorta my point. Why are you attempting to argue against it, if it is obviously true? 

Because I am not arguing against it. What I was saying was that it seems obvious to me that Quebec is distinct from the RoC. But that does not necessarily mean the RoC is somehow less diverse than every other country in the world. That would make no sense.

[Malthus]

Yes, which is sorta my point. Why are you attempting to argue against it, if it is obviously true? 

Because I am not arguing against it. What I was saying was that it seems obvious to me that Quebec is distinct from the RoC. But that does not necessarily mean the RoC is somehow less diverse than every other country in the world. That would make no sense.

So, is Newfoundland 'distinct from' the RoC? They certainly believe so. The Rock was only joined as a province in living memory (1949 - my parents remember it) - before that, it was an entirely separate colony, and then "dominion" - just like Canada. They voted to join confederation. 

What about Nunavut?

As a point of reference, Newfoundland (not Quebec) was that region of Canada one made jokes about the stupidity of: the "newfie joke" was a staple of adolescent humor. So the RoC obviously made a deal about the difference.

[Barrister]

I've read several articles about the NDP's Leap Manifesto - and it's stupidity is just breathtaking. (so of course it was written by leftist power couple Avi Lewis and Naomi Klein).

You have the NDP, a party whose raison d'être is to look after working people, blissfully promising to throw 100,000+ Canadians in the oil and gas sector out of work.  It breezily talks about retraining and mentions expanding work in "caregiving, teaching, social work, the arts and public-interest media".  Yeah, I can just see a rig hand like my brother in law suddenly trying to support his family by becoming a public interest blogger.

The embrace of Leap by the Federal NDP might just put the lie to the Alberta NDP efforts to do "responsible" energy development.  Essentially Notley has said that by introducing a comprehensive carbon plan for Alberta it will buy good will with environmental sectors and allow us to help reduce objections to the oil sector.  Instead it's quite clear that certain environmentalists will not accept any level of oil production - it must "stay in the ground" no matter what.

[Valmy]

So, is Newfoundland 'distinct from' the RoC? They certainly believe so. The Rock was only joined as a province in living memory (1949 - my parents remember it) - before that, it was an entirely separate colony, and then "dominion" - just like Canada. They voted to join confederation. 

What about Nunavut?

As a point of reference, Newfoundland (not Quebec) was that region of Canada one made jokes about the stupidity of: the "newfie joke" was a staple of adolescent humor. So the RoC obviously made a deal about the difference.

I get that there are significant differences between the provinces. But they are a family. Quebec is the black sheep. That is how it seems to me anyway.

[crazy canuck]

I've read several articles about the NDP's Leap Manifesto - and it's stupidity is just breathtaking. (so of course it was written by leftist power couple Avi Lewis and Naomi Klein).

You have the NDP, a party whose raison d'être is to look after working people, blissfully promising to throw 100,000+ Canadians in the oil and gas sector out of work.  It breezily talks about retraining and mentions expanding work in "caregiving, teaching, social work, the arts and public-interest media".  Yeah, I can just see a rig hand like my brother in law suddenly trying to support his family by becoming a public interest blogger.

The embrace of Leap by the Federal NDP might just put the lie to the Alberta NDP efforts to do "responsible" energy development.  Essentially Notley has said that by introducing a comprehensive carbon plan for Alberta it will buy good will with environmental sectors and allow us to help reduce objections to the oil sector.  Instead it's quite clear that certain environmentalists will not accept any level of oil production - it must "stay in the ground" no matter what.

This is going to cause the BC NDP a lot of trouble.  We are going to have a provincial election in the next year.  The very time the NDP will be engaged in a tense internal debate about whether to adopt this platform.  The BC NDP lost the last provincial election because there was the slightest hint that large scale energy projects might not have their full support.  The Manifesto (still can't believe they actually called it a Manifesto) explicitly argues for the very things voters only suspected the last time around.

The practical reality for the NDP in BC is that a large amount of their traditional support is found within the construction trades.  That support will likely go to the Liberals during this election cycle because of the Manifesto.  There is no chance the trade union movement is going to risk all those thousands of good union jobs directly tied into building energy infrastructure.

[Malthus]

So, is Newfoundland 'distinct from' the RoC? They certainly believe so. The Rock was only joined as a province in living memory (1949 - my parents remember it) - before that, it was an entirely separate colony, and then "dominion" - just like Canada. They voted to join confederation. 

What about Nunavut?

As a point of reference, Newfoundland (not Quebec) was that region of Canada one made jokes about the stupidity of: the "newfie joke" was a staple of adolescent humor. So the RoC obviously made a deal about the difference.

I get that there are significant differences between the provinces. But they are a family. Quebec is the black sheep. That is how it seems to me anyway.

Well, one would certainly get that impression, because folks from Quebec are numerous and vocal, and many insist on having special unique status. My guess is that you haven't ever actually heard from anyone from (say) either Nunavut or Newfoundland, or for that matter any Native Canadians or anyone from Atlantic Canada so it is natural you would not have views on what *they* think.

[crazy canuck]

So, is Newfoundland 'distinct from' the RoC? They certainly believe so. The Rock was only joined as a province in living memory (1949 - my parents remember it) - before that, it was an entirely separate colony, and then "dominion" - just like Canada. They voted to join confederation. 

What about Nunavut?

As a point of reference, Newfoundland (not Quebec) was that region of Canada one made jokes about the stupidity of: the "newfie joke" was a staple of adolescent humor. So the RoC obviously made a deal about the difference.

I get that there are significant differences between the provinces. But they are a family. Quebec is the black sheep. That is how it seems to me anyway.

That is certainly one of the Quebec narratives.  But it all depends on perspective.  I really would have no idea about that narrative if our Quebec Languishites were not here to inform us about the view from that province.

[Valmy]

Well, one would certainly get that impression, because folks from Quebec are numerous and vocal, and many insist on having special unique status. My guess is that you haven't ever actually heard from anyone from (say) either Nunavut or Newfoundland, or for that matter any Native Canadians or anyone from Atlantic Canada so it is natural you would not have views on what *they* think.

I would certainly be interested in hearing how they view their relationship with English Speaking Canada vs. Quebec.

Stephen Harper said Quebec is a nation inside Canada. That seems clear enough to me. But then Stephen Harper needed votes in Quebec.

[Malthus]

Well, one would certainly get that impression, because folks from Quebec are numerous and vocal, and many insist on having special unique status. My guess is that you haven't ever actually heard from anyone from (say) either Nunavut or Newfoundland, or for that matter any Native Canadians or anyone from Atlantic Canada so it is natural you would not have views on what *they* think.

I would certainly be interested in hearing how they view their relationship with English Speaking Canada vs. Quebec.

Stephen Harper said Quebec is a nation inside Canada. That seems clear enough to me. But then Stephen Harper needed votes in Quebec.

If Steven Harper says something it must be true - words to live by.   

But seriously - there is no doubt that nationalist, separatist agitation is strongest in Quebec. That doesn't answer the question of distinctiveness though. "First Nations" (note the terminology) are *already* legally classified as "distinct", have been for years. 

[Valmy]

"First Nations" (note the terminology) are *already* legally classified as "distinct", have been for years. 

Well that is different.

[Grallon]

Canada: a nation of obnoxious special snowflakes who have nothing in common?

No Valmy.  As a matter of fact your comment touches the core of the divide - your northern neighbor is *not* a nation.

We Quebecers think of ourselves as a nation with a history dating back long before any Anglos came this far north.  We have a unique culture and identity that is unlike anything else on this planet; a culture laced with the anxiety of disappearing as a group (or tribe if you insist on that condescending term) for instance.

Outside there are Anglos - and Americans.  Notice the distinction in our minds between both groups.

The dominant narrative in Canada is that the country is a collection of minorities that have all moved, together under the aegis of the supremely enlightened 1982 bill of rights, beyond tribalism or even nationalism; their very own brand of exceptionalism if you will.   There is no such thing as "We the People" anywhere in the ROC's political ethos. 

One could say they have turned their lack of collective identity (not Americans, not French, not natives, British subjects for a long while but not British or Scottish or Irish or anything) into a thing which they like to believe is a mark of superiority (witness Malthus' veiled contempt - which surfaces whenever this topic comes up).  Let us not forget that the first Anglos were in fact Americans who refused to join the revolution and moved north.




G.

[Oexmelin]

My point is that Quebec is quite different from other places in Canada ... and other places in Canada are, as well, different from each other.

It all depends on one's perspective. People in Quebec insist on their uniqueness, and that is fine, but what is not fine is when they assume - quite wrongly - that everywhere else in Canada shares a fundamental similarity: that BC is in some profound sense 'the same as' Newfoundland or Nunavut.

That, as Valmy has pointed out, is astonishingly trivial. The point is not whether or not Quebec is a unique snowflake - even though that is always how you, and many others, want to read it - and thereby it is a point that will always have to be fought. In any other political setting, what I am saying would equally be trivial: that language creates, reinforces, and reflects cultural differences that cannot be easily bridged by translation, and conversely, that it creates, reinforces,and reflects cultural similarities that form a political forum. Only in Canada would it be contested so fiercely. Obviously, moving from Newfoundland to Alberta would make differences stand out, but so would be moving from an urban setting to a rural one, from farming to lawyering, from wealth to poverty. I thought this would be a given. My point was that switching from a language-specific political forum to another creates distinctions that are not captured by those other switches. It was an attempt at explaining why Quebec's political brokers become national political figures whereas otherwise ave a harder time breaking into Quebec's political scene.

[PRC]

This discussion, and Wiggin's "Americans!" post also brings to mind the question of "The West" in Canada... a topic on which I heard a recent CBC radio broadcast.

What do you think "the West" is in a Canadian context?

BC
BC + Alberta, Saskatchewan & Manitoba?

Having been born and raised on Vancouver Island I always considered the West as just BC.  I thought of Alberta, Saskatchewan & Manitoba as the Prairie provinces and Ontario and points East as "Back East".   But being with a partner from Ontario she always considered the West as "Anything West of Ontario".

Now that I live in Alberta my impression is that Albertan's consider "the West" as Alberta alone.  Saskatchewan and Manitoba as the prairie provinces and BC as something else altogether.

[Barrister]

"The West" is obviously BC through Manitoba.

The more interesting question is whether "the west" includes Yukon and NWT (since they are obviously in the western half of the country), or whether they are their own separate thing called "the north" (together with Nunavut).