[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

It is not racism, it is anti-clericalism.

I don't see the Conservatives trying to stop anyone else from wearing items which identify with their faith during these ceremonies.  I doubt very much the Conservatives would dream of preventing an observant Christian or Jew from wearing religious garb or symbols.  Instead they attempt to bring special regulations against a particularly vulnerable group who don't have the political power to fight back.  That's where the rest of us need to stand up to this kind of politics.

[Jacob]

How do you resolve the misogynistic thing tho?

When people - like Harper and BB - who have never given a crap about misogyny and whose policies are indifferent (at best) towards issues of misogyny start throwing the word around to harass specific ethnic and religious minorities for electoral gain, you resolve it by dismissing it as calculated racism.

There is no evidence that the policies are concerned about misogyny. There is no evidence that the polices will have any effects on addressing misogyny or make life better for the alleged victims. There is, however, plenty of evidence that it will rally the racist vote to the Conservative party.

If the Harperites and anti-clericalists are concerned about groups enforcing modes of dress on women in an oppressive fashion, why are they silent on how women dress in Hutterite communities? On how they are expected to dress in Mennonite communities? On how ultra Orthodox Jewish women are dressed?

If you care about women, why don't you ban high heel shoes? Not only do they exist to render women sexual objects on behest of the men in their cultural community, but long term wear is actually harmful (unlike a niqab).

If you want to discuss and remedy misogyny, that's great - let's have that discussion. But when Harper brings out the racist dog-whistles he's going to get called on the racist dog-whistles - and they are just that. Witness how effectively they've rallied grallon to his side - someone who straight up owns up to disliking Muslims. Witness the increase in racist contributions to the public discourse as people suddenly decide it's more acceptable to target vitriol at Muslims

You resolve the misogyny thing by dismissing the current approach as a clear, cynical, and racist ploy designed to rally racists and actually hurting the people you're claiming to be helping. Then, if you want to address potential misogyny, you provide enough resources for the people you think are being oppressed to get help and be supported if, when, and how they decide to take that help.

[Barrister]

How do you resolve the misogynistic thing tho?

When people - like Harper and BB - who have never given a crap about misogyny and whose policies are indifferent (at best) towards issues of misogyny start throwing the word around to harass specific ethnic and religious minorities for electoral gain, you resolve it by dismissing it as calculated racism.

Hey, Fuck you too Jacob.

[Valmy]

If the Harperites and anti-clericalists are concerned about groups enforcing modes of dress on women in an oppressive fashion, why are they silent on how women dress in Hutterite communities? On how they are expected to dress in Mennonite communities? On how ultra Orthodox Jewish women are dressed?

Pretty sure Quebec would freak if waves of Mennonites or Orthodox Jews or whatever were moving into their country as well. But virtually none of them are. I see zero evidence that they are hypocritical about this. They have been passing laws to protect their culture forever.

If you care about women, why don't you ban high heel shoes? Not only do they exist to render women sexual objects on behest of the men in their cultural community, but long term wear is actually harmful (unlike a niqab).

High heeled shoes are not threats to Quebec culture.

So there we are.

I mean at least try to understand a bit without screaming racists and hypocrisy constantly. Quebec seems perfectly consistent with issues like this. You just hate that they have this priority which is different from yours so you try to demean and insult them. It is pretty tiresome. Though I guess GF invited this upon himself by claiming it had something to do with misogyny.

I do not agree with their objective and think it is a lost cause that causes them more harm than good. But I understand it. People all over the world have this conservative need to defend their culture from outside influence coming in.

[Malthus]

What is annoying is that the Conservatives don't even really mean it. In my view it's just a calculated electioneering ploy, designed to hurt the NDP in Quebec. My prediction is that, should the Cons win, you won't hear much more about it.

That said, stuff like this makes it really difficult to hold one's nose and vote Con. 

[Valmy]

What is annoying is that the Conservatives don't even really mean it. In my view it's just a calculated electioneering ploy, designed to hurt the NDP in Quebec. My prediction is that, should the Cons win, you won't hear much more about it.

That said, stuff like this makes it really difficult to hold one's nose and vote Con. 

Yep this was a shit move by the Cons.

[viper37]

I don't see the Conservatives trying to stop anyone else from wearing items which identify with their faith during these ceremonies.

do others typically wear a veil that covers their entire face rendering any interaction extremely difficult and positive identification impossible?

Should we allow polygamy and incest because some religious people believe it to be the way to express their faith?  Should we allow animal sacrifices anywhere while forbidding a farmer to slaughter his own beasts?  For God's sake, you are being ridiculous with your talk or intolerance.  You are voting for the most anti-Quebec and francophobic party of the lot, a party that has sacrificed the interest of the francophone population of this country every time it would gain them a few more votes in English Canada since it's first run at power and you're lecturing me on intolerance??  Look at your mirror.

[viper37]

There is no evidence that the policies are concerned about misogyny. There is no evidence that the polices will have any effects on addressing misogyny or make life better for the alleged victims. There is, however, plenty of evidence that it will rally the racist vote to the Conservative party.

There is no evidence that rules against pedophilia make life better for the alleged victimes of pedophilia.  Ergo, we should dismiss such laws.  They are grounded in intolerance after all.  There is plenty of evidence that it will rally the homophobic vote because pedophilia is often associated with homosexuality.

Therefore, we should dismiss such laws.  They never prevented child abuse by various religious communities, Boys Scouts and hockey coaches.

If the Harperites and anti-clericalists are concerned about groups enforcing modes of dress on women in an oppressive fashion, why are they silent on how women dress in Hutterite communities?

I don't even know that group.

On how they are expected to dress in Mennonite communities?

Are there any Mennonite communities in Quebec?  I don't know of any, but there are.

On how ultra Orthodox Jewish women are dressed?

Ah, on this, Quebec tried to act.  Lots of the same people using terms like "harperites" and "anti-clericalists" accused the Quebec government (and the populace, naturally), of being racists.  Now, that Canada has let them flee, the kids of Lev Tahor are so much better living in camps, somewhere in Ecuador, free of the religious persecution.  How dare we to prevent child abuse when it is a clear infringement on Religious rights?  Such racists we are

If you care about women, why don't you ban high heel shoes? Not only do they exist to render women sexual objects on behest of the men in their cultural community, but long term wear is actually harmful (unlike a niqab).

Are there any religion that force women to wear high heels?  Do women not wearing high heels fear corporal punishment by law in any country?  Have you ever heard of a men drowning his daughters because they refused to wear high heels?  Do you have other silly examples like that?

If you want to discuss and remedy misogyny, that's great - let's have that discussion. But when Harper brings out the racist dog-whistles he's going to get called on the racist dog-whistles - and they are just that. Witness how effectively they've rallied grallon to his side - someone who straight up owns up to disliking Muslims. Witness the increase in racist contributions to the public discourse as people suddenly decide it's more acceptable to target vitriol at Muslims

The Hell's Angels and the Italian mafia are easily swayed to the Liberal Party's cause.  Alfonso Gagliano had ties to the Italian Mafia, heck, he was a made member.  And he was an influent Minister for the Liberal Party, until he became their scapegoat for the sponsorship scandal.  You remember that one, don't you?  Your pretty boys Chrétien, and Paul Martin, defending canadian values against racists and intolerant bastards likes me, taking money from the Government's account to fill the coffers of the Liberal Party?  You do remember them?  In case you do not, they are standing right next to your boy Trudeau.

So, are you sure you are not a criminal?  Should I be worried of something?  You never seem the type, but look at how easily you and CC rallied to the Liberal's cause, criminals, thieves, members of the organized crime even.  And you are siding with them.  That makes a criminal.  Just as it makes me a racist because I am against religious extremists.

You resolve the misogyny thing by dismissing the current approach as a clear, cynical, and racist ploy designed to rally racists and actually hurting the people you're claiming to be helping. Then, if you want to address potential misogyny, you provide enough resources for the people you think are being oppressed to get help and be supported if, when, and how they decide to take that help.

That's like saying "we don't want to make laws against pedophilia, but if you are in such an abusive relationship, you should seek help by yourselves to the various organism fighting against it, to which we have given ample money".
Yeah, that would work.

We could have the same approach against organized crime too.  When Quebec pressured the Canadian government to fight against organized crime, lots of people said it was un-canadian.  it was the American thing to do, apparently.  Heck, criminalizing membership to a criminal organization?  What a silly idea.  Had we been on this forum at the time, you would have tried to argue against it.  Saying we violated some basic freedom of assocation, I suppose.  You would have draped yourself in a mantle of virtue defending the Canadian way of life.  Some politicians did.  Eventually, the laws changed.  Hell's Angels are much less visible now.  Recruitment is harder, it takes more time for them to get back in shape after a police raid.  There are no more bombs going out weekly in Montreal's area. 

But had we listen to people like you and CC, we would not have sent a clear message that such behavior will not be tolerated.  That extra casualties in their wars will not be tolerated, that anyone wearing "colours" was now a target of law enforcement, even if they didn't commit any other crimes.  And eventually, the war ended.  Not because the "alleged" victims seeked help from some organization claiming to help them, but because there changes in the laws and police practice.

There will always be organized crime, we can not defeat it.  Such as there will always be religious extremism, we can not defeat it.  But we sure can regulate it.  Just like we regulate gun ownership for everyone in this country, even if it's detrimental to our freedom.

[viper37]

What is annoying is that the Conservatives don't even really mean it. In my view it's just a calculated electioneering ploy, designed to hurt the NDP in Quebec. My prediction is that, should the Cons win, you won't hear much more about it.

That said, stuff like this makes it really difficult to hold one's nose and vote Con. 

Again, not only in Quebec.  The NDP's support as dropped everywhere since the issue arose.
But yeah, they don't really mean anything of it.  Except maybe the tipline, their dumbest move.

[viper37]

People all over the world have this conservative need to defend their culture from outside influence coming in.

Well, looking at what remains of 1st nation's culture, I don't think they're entirely wrong.  Ever since the English set foot in this country they've been trying to push away the French, and CC is about to vote for the party that facilitated this more than any other.  But he's telling us it's for a good cause.  Then he'll complain that the PQ is again in power and preparing another referendum.  English Canadians can be like that, sometimes.

And I'd like to restate that I have nothing against immigrants or immigration.  I don't make any difference between a Christian blowing up an abortion clinic or a Muslim blowing himself up.  Both are religious fanatics and we should take a stance against both of them.

Of course, I don't expect a majority of Canadians to follow us on this.  They've only recently realized that an ever encroaching Federal government can be a bad thing.  Only now is Ontario talking about having their own pension plan.  I mean, it took them 50 years to come to this, it'll take another 50 years to understand the dangers of religious radicalism.

[Monoriu]

I propose a simple solution to all this.

Don't vote.  Debate this all you want, but just pretend the election doesn't happen.  When was the last time a vote or two made a difference in an election?  Probably never.  What's the point of driving to the polling station, lining up to fill in a piece of paper that makes no difference anyway?  I am sure you have more important things to do. 

[Valmy]

I propose a simple solution to all this.

Don't vote.  Debate this all you want, but just pretend the election doesn't happen.  When was the last time a vote or two made a difference in an election?  Probably never.  What's the point of driving to the polling station, lining up to fill in a piece of paper that makes no difference anyway?  I am sure you have more important things to do. 

Is there a circumstance where the solution is to vote?

[Monoriu]

I propose a simple solution to all this.

Don't vote.  Debate this all you want, but just pretend the election doesn't happen.  When was the last time a vote or two made a difference in an election?  Probably never.  What's the point of driving to the polling station, lining up to fill in a piece of paper that makes no difference anyway?  I am sure you have more important things to do. 

Is there a circumstance where the solution is to vote?

Of course not

[crazy canuck]

What is annoying is that the Conservatives don't even really mean it. In my view it's just a calculated electioneering ploy, designed to hurt the NDP in Quebec. My prediction is that, should the Cons win, you won't hear much more about it.

That said, stuff like this makes it really difficult to hold one's nose and vote Con.

The problem is I think they do mean it.  They have attempted to ban a woman from wearing headgear.  They have gone to a superior court twice and lost on the issue.  Once during the course of this election.  They have sought leave from the SCC to argue the issue. They are wasting government resources and doing real harm.  This is not just mere puffery.

[crazy canuck]

If the Harperites and anti-clericalists are concerned about groups enforcing modes of dress on women in an oppressive fashion, why are they silent on how women dress in Hutterite communities? On how they are expected to dress in Mennonite communities? On how ultra Orthodox Jewish women are dressed?

Pretty sure Quebec would freak if waves of Mennonites or Orthodox Jews or whatever were moving into their country as well. But virtually none of them are. I see zero evidence that they are hypocritical about this. They have been passing laws to protect their culture forever.

If you care about women, why don't you ban high heel shoes? Not only do they exist to render women sexual objects on behest of the men in their cultural community, but long term wear is actually harmful (unlike a niqab).

High heeled shoes are not threats to Quebec culture.

So there we are.

I mean at least try to understand a bit without screaming racists and hypocrisy constantly. Quebec seems perfectly consistent with issues like this. You just hate that they have this priority which is different from yours so you try to demean and insult them. It is pretty tiresome. Though I guess GF invited this upon himself by claiming it had something to do with misogyny.

I do not agree with their objective and think it is a lost cause that causes them more harm than good. But I understand it. People all over the world have this conservative need to defend their culture from outside influence coming in.

We understand the motivation of some in Quebec for looking the other way when a minority gets attacked like this.  But it doesn't make the act by the Conservatives any less shameful.