[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

Viper regularly makes a fool of himself whenever socialism and homosexuality are mentioned.  It's his special thing.

Yeah, sure, mister women-stinks-and-are-disgusting.

[viper37]

I'm pretty sure it does, actually.

Nope.  You have to go beyond that. 
Simple example, with two corporations in the same field of activity.
Company A makes 10% profit.
Company B makes 12% profit on similar sales.

You would think Company B is better than A.
But looking at it closer, you realize that, in actual value, company A required 100M$ working capital to achieve its results, while company B required 300M$ working capital for the same results.
Now, wich one is most profitable?

You can go and look at subsidies too, as CC suggested.  If a company makes 5% profit without subsidy and the other one makes 8% with a large subsidy, wich one is more profitable?
If one gets a loan guarantee from the government while the other borrows at the regular market rates, wich one is the best?

There are lots of factors involved in company valuation.

[viper37]

And no Malthus - the collapse of the Bloc doesn't mean the end of Quebec's nationalism - despite the wishful thinking of Canadians.

It remained unchanged.  As we saw yesterday night, Québécois voted for a leftist party as they usually did with the Bloc.  Only this time, Duceppe was so good at playing the scarecrow of the Western rightwing values conflicting with Quebec that people voted for the party most likely to defend a pure leftwing agenda.
The Bloc and the PQ have pushed themselves into a corner over the years, making of Quebec's interests a left-right thing.  And it bite them in the ass yesterday.

It's a good thing, because it will force the seperatist movement to take note of what's coming next.  If they keep pandering to the left, people are going to switch massively toward Québec Solidaire and it will be the end for the independance dream.  In a pacific way, at least.  As Facal once said, the PQ needs to occupy the center.  They forgot that.

[Malthus]

Viper regularly makes a fool of himself whenever socialism and homosexuality are mentioned.  It's his special thing.

-----

And no Malthus - the collapse of the Bloc doesn't mean the end of Quebec's nationalism - despite the wishful thinking of Canadians.




G.

The "wishful thinking" here lies in assuming that there is no possibility of signalng of any dissatisfaction with the tired mantra of sovereignty in the almost complete rejection of the federal party.

Viper made a good point above: when people voted *for* the Bloc, everyone was quick to assume that meant that they were in favour of sovereignty; when people vote *against* the Bloc, you see all sorts of complex analysis emerging as to why this means nothing.   

[Jacob]

Malthus, it does seem kind of weird that you insist that it must mean the death of sovereignty when the people in Quebec tell you that you're misreading the signs. At the very least, it seems premature. Maybe give it a provincial election in Quebec before you are so certain.

[Grey Fox]

The sovereignty idea is a lot like nuclear power. Once you have it, you'll never get rid of it. You might hide it somewhere out of sight but you won't get rid of it.

[Malthus]

Malthus, it does seem kind of weird that you insist that it must mean the death of sovereignty when the people in Quebec tell you that you're misreading the signs. At the very least, it seems premature. Maybe give it a provincial election in Quebec before you are so certain.

I'm not *insisting* it *must*. That's others, putting words in my mouth (look it upthread).

I'm *asking* if it *might* be a *political signal*, and disbelieving guys, like Grallon, who are so politically in tune that they do not bother to vote.

Also ... since when was Viper not from Quebec? 

Edit: and another thing: being told one cannot have a legitimate opinion because I don't happen to be a citizen of Quebec gets old fast (doesn't help when that "opinion" is misidentfied). I'm in Quebec often enough - my family owns property there - so it is not like I've never seen the place. Anyway, I don't tell you that you should defer to my opinion on Canadian politics because you are not a Canadian citizen, do I? 

[Grallon]

It's amusing to see that today, all those newspapers generally associated with the federalist movement, were gushing about the fact that a majority of Quebecers had voted *for* a federalist party. *shakes head*

Quebecers didn't massively elect the NDP candidates because it is a *national* (read Canadian) party.  They didn't vote for Canada's federalism.  A federal election isn't the proper venue for that since we won't decide our future in Ottawa.  This was a vote against the Bloc, and not because it is nationalist, but because it's been there there too long with too little practical effects.  They voted for Layton's winning smile, they voted for *change* in the same way that Americans voted for Obama in 2008.  This was a protestation vote - not an endorsement. 

This is what you, and so many Canadians, seem unable to acknowledge - or even recognize.  And IMO it stems from the blind spot so many of you seem to share and that I call your denial of our national existence.  You can't fathom our motivations because you are willfully rejecting an essential component of the explanation.  That's why I say Canada is a fraud: a country that pretend to be what it's not and denies what it really is!




G.

[katmai]

[Malthus]

It's amusing to see that today, all those newspapers generally associated with the federalist movement, were gushing about the fact that a majority of Quebecers had voted *for* a federalist party. *shakes head*

Quebecers didn't massively elect the NDP candidates because it is a *national* (read Canadian) party.  They didn't vote for Canada's federalism.  A federal election isn't the proper venue for that since we won't decide our future in Ottawa.  This was a vote against the Bloc, and not because it is nationalist, but because it's been there there too long with too little practical effects.  They voted for Layton's winning smile, they voted for *change* in the same way that Americans voted for Obama in 2008.  This was a protestation vote - not an endorsement. 

This is what you, and so many Canadians, seem unable to acknowledge - or even recognize.  And IMO it stems from the blind spot so many of you seem to share and that I call your denial of our national existence.  You can't fathom our motivations because you are willfully rejecting an essential component of the explanation.  That's why I say Canada is a fraud: a country that pretend to be what it's not and denies what it really is!




G.

And no part of that protest could possibly be aimed at the seperatist message itself, or signal a desire to engage in the political life of this country as a country?

[Zoupa]

It's amusing to see that today, all those newspapers generally associated with the federalist movement, were gushing about the fact that a majority of Quebecers had voted *for* a federalist party. *shakes head*

Quebecers didn't massively elect the NDP candidates because it is a *national* (read Canadian) party.  They didn't vote for Canada's federalism.  A federal election isn't the proper venue for that since we won't decide our future in Ottawa.  This was a vote against the Bloc, and not because it is nationalist, but because it's been there there too long with too little practical effects.  They voted for Layton's winning smile, they voted for *change* in the same way that Americans voted for Obama in 2008.  This was a protestation vote - not an endorsement. 

This is what you, and so many Canadians, seem unable to acknowledge - or even recognize.  And IMO it stems from the blind spot so many of you seem to share and that I call your denial of our national existence.  You can't fathom our motivations because you are willfully rejecting an essential component of the explanation.  That's why I say Canada is a fraud: a country that pretend to be what it's not and denies what it really is!




G.

And no part of that protest could possibly be aimed at the seperatist message itself, or signal a desire to engage in the political life of this country as a country?

A pretty small part, yes.

[Malthus]

It's amusing to see that today, all those newspapers generally associated with the federalist movement, were gushing about the fact that a majority of Quebecers had voted *for* a federalist party. *shakes head*

Quebecers didn't massively elect the NDP candidates because it is a *national* (read Canadian) party.  They didn't vote for Canada's federalism.  A federal election isn't the proper venue for that since we won't decide our future in Ottawa.  This was a vote against the Bloc, and not because it is nationalist, but because it's been there there too long with too little practical effects.  They voted for Layton's winning smile, they voted for *change* in the same way that Americans voted for Obama in 2008.  This was a protestation vote - not an endorsement. 

This is what you, and so many Canadians, seem unable to acknowledge - or even recognize.  And IMO it stems from the blind spot so many of you seem to share and that I call your denial of our national existence.  You can't fathom our motivations because you are willfully rejecting an essential component of the explanation.  That's why I say Canada is a fraud: a country that pretend to be what it's not and denies what it really is!




G.

And no part of that protest could possibly be aimed at the seperatist message itself, or signal a desire to engage in the political life of this country as a country?

A pretty small part, yes.

It is interesting, then, that his plummet in popularity can be traced to his use of the sovereignty message:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/decision-canada/Return+separatist+message+spelled+doom+Duceppe/4721514/story.html

Desperate to rally his separatist base, he decided to make a separatist speech.

"We have only one task to accomplish," he said. "Elect the maximum number of sovereignists in Ottawa and then we go to the next phase – electing a PQ government. A strong Bloc in Ottawa. The PQ in power in Quebec. And everything again becomes possible."

"Et tout redevient encore possible:" words that will be carved on Duceppe's political tombstone.

Admittedly an extremely partisan article - but the facts speak for themselves.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/decision-canada/Return+separatist+message+spelled+doom+Duceppe/4721514/story.html#ixzz1LLl6gqgm


Compare with ... "sovereignty was not an issue in the campaign"

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jdxh0toXz2k6p6aDuV7anjieSOtQ?docId=6745268

"Sovereignty was not an issue in this campaign," Parti Quebecois Leader Pauline Marois said in Quebec City on Tuesday.

Seems an element of denial at work here.

[Zoupa]

The fact is if you had a referendum tomorrow, separation would get 35-40% of the vote. It's in a lull. I'm confident Harper's majority will influence those numbers in the next 2 years.

[Jacob]

Malthus, like you I hope that seperatism is on a downswing. I'd rather keep Canada together.

It seems like I took grallon's characterization of your position as your actual position. You have my apologies

[Fireblade]

God, you people are like a bunch of Lettows. Shit, you're even WORSE. "We want to be an independent country because the Yankees Anglophones are oppressing our culture!" Nigga, please. After 6 months of being your own country, you motherfuckers will come running back to Mama Ottawa's skirts, whining to be let back in. Then, after Harper laughs at you, because your shitty province contains absolutely nothing of value, you'll be forced to beg Daddy America. And let me tell you, we Americans aren't going to give a fuck about protecting your culture, or whatever the hell you want. Oh no. We're going to put a Starbucks and a McDonalds on every street. Hordes of us will come to Montreal, loud, fatass Texans, speaking English and ONLY English. You speak French to us? We'll yell in your face - "ENGLISH. MOTHERFUCKER. CAN. YOU. SPEAK. IT."

It's going to be RICH watching you get independence.