[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

historically French has been treated in the rest of the country (with some exceptions that prove the rule) the same way the Quebec legislation is treating English.

huh, what?

Paging Dr Oex, paging Dr Oex!

I am not sure what you are reacting to.  Under the legislation new immigrants will not be able to access public services in English after six months.  That is not all that different from French speakers not being able to obtain services, really at all, in other parts of the country - or where they are obtained, they are inferior.

So 2 things:
1- your qualifier of historically, which is just wrong. Could I get services in French in Vancouver in 1922? Because you sure could get services in English in Montreal back then.
2- you're focusing on new immigrants only. What about the anglophones in Quebec that do not qualify as new immigrants? They can live their whole life without speaking a lick of French if they so choose, thanks to the protections given to them by the Qc government. Can you say the same about Francophones anywhere else in Canada, Qc and NB excepted?

Sorry, that was just poor grammar on my part.  What I meant to communicate is that historically it has been difficult (impossible) to obtain services in French in most of the rest of Canada.  Not that it has historically been difficult to get services in English in Quebec.

[viper37]

It's not everywhere in Ontario and NB where you can live you life exclusively in French.  Some people in the Cornwall area, where is there's a big French enclave, and in some parts of Northern Ontario, close to the Quebec border can live their life exclusively in French.  You can't do that in Toronto.  Even if technically the provincial government is bilingual, the cities are not, you can't force them to be: https://saultstemarie.ca

Even in bilingual cities like Ottawa, good luck getting equal access to services in French.

What English Quebecers have always wanted is a bilingual Quebec and a unilingual Canada.

[crazy canuck]

I am not sure what you are reacting to.  Under the legislation new immigrants will not be able to access public services in English after six months.  That is not all that different from French speakers not being able to obtain services, really at all, in other parts of the country - or where they are obtained, they are inferior.

Well, not really.

The law simply states that official correspondance is going to be by default in French. Medical services, emergency services, justice, education correspondance - all of those, which constitutes the overwhelming majority of services one gets from the government, can still be conducted in English, as well as even ordinary communication, "if the volume of such communication warrants it" (i.e., if there's some problem that needs solving), or if "matters of health and safety are concerned".

People who have been using English to communicate with the government until now can continue to do so, and will obtain, I am pretty sure, quite adequate services in English, in no time at all. So, it certainly sucks when one wants to call Revenu Québec, but newcomers can safely assume that they will have trials in English, doctors who speak English, school communications in English, driving examinations in English, access to excellent higher education in English, comforted by the fact that the widespread bilingualism in these sorts of position will allow them to have services quickly and efficiently.   

The issue elsewhere in Canada is precisely the difficulty of obtaining these sorts of crucial government services in French. If the Quebec government wanted to treat anglophones the same way, they'd simply say that they will continue to offer English service, but only hire a couple of bilingual people, and let those who ask for such service pray  that their request falls within one of the days these bilingual people work (as well as hope that one of these people is actually able to construct complex sentences - not a given).

Thank you for that clarification.  That is much different from the reports I have been reading in our media - I had the impression all services would be cut off.

I withdraw my analogy.

[Barrister]

I had an interesting conversation with a colleague today.  Interesting because his brother is a sitting Conservative MP.

Anyways he figures Polievre is going to win in a landslide, although he wasn't sure who to vote for.  He more liked PP's strong fiscal conservative bona fides and I don't think was overly worried about his flirting with the "truckers", that Brown was the candidate to potentially beat PP but his punches haven't landed, and both Lewis and Charest were never going to win.  He figures Polievre will clean Trudeau's clock in a debate.

I think that might be an overly rosey assessment.  I think he basically figures PP will pivot back to his pre-leadership race tone and language after the race is over.  We'll see.

He's probably right that he'll win though.

[Zoupa]

He more liked PP's strong fiscal conservative bona fides

 

[Jacob]

Strong fiscal bona fides? Undermining the Bank of Canada and proposing Bitcoin as legitimate and worthwhile financial instrument?

[crazy canuck]

For the conservative wing of the Conservative party the bar is pretty low.

[Jacob]

I mean... it's a fair political play.

The Conservatives are going to make the gamble that:

1: Canadians are in the mood for angry radical rightwing politics, finding it more palatable than more centrist strands of Conservatism.

and/ or

2: That Canadians are broadly fatigued with the Liberals such that they'll go for the other box, whatever may actually be in it.

Obviously I hope they fail because I think what PP is peddling is incredibly divisive, intellectually bankrupt (financial bonafides ), and dangerous to democracy (continuing to support the occupation of Ottawa).

[Grey Fox]

I'm torn over PP. He's so bad and dangerous that I'm wondering if he will singlehandedly restart our independance movement and if I think that's a good thing or not.

And wanting him to fail worse than O'Toole.

[crazy canuck]

I mean... it's a fair political play.

The Conservatives are going to make the gamble that:

1: Canadians are in the mood for angry radical rightwing politics, finding it more palatable than more centrist strands of Conservatism.

and/ or

2: That Canadians are broadly fatigued with the Liberals such that they'll go for the other box, whatever may actually be in it.

Obviously I hope they fail because I think what PP is peddling is incredibly divisive, intellectually bankrupt (financial bonafides ), and dangerous to democracy (continuing to support the occupation of Ottawa).

Fair?  No.  It's plain intellectual dishonesty to say that a guy who wanted to move us to a crypto based currency and who has been described as a financial illiterate by former bank of Canada governors, is in any way fiscally credible.

[Jacob]

Fair?  No.  It's plain intellectual dishonesty to say that a guy who wanted to move us to a crypto based currency and who has been described as a financial illiterate by former bank of Canada governors, is in any way fiscally credible.

We are using "fair" differently, and maybe my usage is a bit... idiosyncratic in this case. I agree with your assessment of Poillievre.

What I mean is that it's pretty clear what Poillievre is about.

His true believers somehow think that he's a bracing breath of fresh air that is just what the country both wants and needs. Many of the rest of us think he's a dangerous loose cannon. A good number of Conservatives are looking at Poillievre and trying to decide if they're going to ride the tiger... and wondering, perhaps, if the tiger has much in the way of legs.

It's not clear to me that Poillievre is going to have the same kind of impact on the Canadian political scene as Trump did in the US.

[Josephus]

I think P. may do well with the truck convoy F@ck Trudeau types. But I think he will lose the centrist Conservatives, the Globe and Mail types. He's not going to help them win in Toronto. So in all I don't think he bodes well for the party

[crazy canuck]

I think P. may do well with the truck convoy F@ck Trudeau types. But I think he will lose the centrist Conservatives, the Globe and Mail types. He's not going to help them win in Toronto. So in all I don't think he bodes well for the party

He is already splitting the party. Predictably the Reform types skew for him and the rest don't.

I think Jacob has asked a good question, will the Canadian Conservative party go the way of the GOP, or will we just repeat the Reform split.

Hoping PP moderates if he wins is very reminiscent of what people were saying/hoping about Trump.  But there is reason to think this is the PP we will continue to have if he wins a general election. I think we can't underestimate the effect of right wing social media having the same impact on the Canadian right as it has had on the Americans.  And PP will likely continue to play to that crowd.

[viper37]

I think P. may do well with the truck convoy F@ck Trudeau types. But I think he will lose the centrist Conservatives, the Globe and Mail types. He's not going to help them win in Toronto. So in all I don't think he bodes well for the party

He is already splitting the party. Predictably the Reform types skew for him and the rest don't.

I think Jacob has asked a good question, will the Canadian Conservative party go the way of the GOP, or will we just repeat the Reform split.

Hoping PP moderates if he wins is very reminiscent of what people were saying/hoping about Trump.  But there is reason to think this is the PP we will continue to have if he wins a general election. I think we can't underestimate the effect of right wing social media having the same impact on the Canadian right as it has had on the Americans.  And PP will likely continue to play to that crowd.

It's heading for a reform split.

[HVC]

I think P. may do well with the truck convoy F@ck Trudeau types. But I think he will lose the centrist Conservatives, the Globe and Mail types. He's not going to help them win in Toronto. So in all I don't think he bodes well for the party

He is already splitting the party. Predictably the Reform types skew for him and the rest don't.

I think Jacob has asked a good question, will the Canadian Conservative party go the way of the GOP, or will we just repeat the Reform split.

Hoping PP moderates if he wins is very reminiscent of what people were saying/hoping about Trump.  But there is reason to think this is the PP we will continue to have if he wins a general election. I think we can't underestimate the effect of right wing social media having the same impact on the Canadian right as it has had on the Americans.  And PP will likely continue to play to that crowd.

It's heading for a reform split.

But then you can vote for the non crazy splinter with a clear conscious