[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Malthus]

I disagree with Parizeau - if someone wants to live their life in rural Quebec, there is no point in forcing them to speak English if they don't want to.

Ok but they will be second class citizens in Canada if they don't. They will be unable to work or function in most of the important economic centers in the country.

That's simply a lifestyle choice - if you want to stay in rural Ontario, or really several whole provinces like Saskatchewan, you aren't thereby a "second class citizen".

[viper37]

I disagree with Parizeau - if someone wants to live their life in rural Quebec, there is no point in forcing them to speak English if they don't want to.

I don't force them to do anything.  I want them to learn the language.  Then, they can see the world for themselves.  Wether or not they use it is up to them.  But it's a necessary tool to get first hand information on Canada and the USA. 

If your complaint is that services are not available to the Francophone minority where they ought to be - that complaint has merit.

Ah, but to get there, we need French speakers...

New Brunswick ought to have official bilingualism, as should Ontario, because in both cases there are substantial Francophone minorities. I disagree with Ford's cutting of such services (as I disagree with almost everything Ford has done).

I have yet to see an Ontarian defending Ford's policies, even from someone who voted for his party...  That's strange

Yet, he will be re-elected.  And the party fighting official bilinguism in New Brunswick will make some gains in the next election.

[Malthus]

You completely misunderstand the 1.3% figure - that's 1.3% who have French as their mother language. Not 1.3% who are able to speak it! 

I did indeed. But your response to my post makes no sense then. Why would you get on me for not speaking Spanish if this was about what my first language was?

It is about what their first language was.

Texas has a large population whose first language is Spanish. Therefore, it makes sense for Texans to learn Spanish, for ease of communication with fellow citizens.

Toronto has a small population (tiny, really) of citizens whose first language in French (as well as a whole multiplicity of others whose first languages are not English). Therefore, the pressure to learn French is less, because it isn't all that necessary to actually communicate with other citizens. 

[Zoupa]

You completely misunderstand the 1.3% figure - that's 1.3% who have French as their mother language. Not 1.3% who are able to speak it! 

I did indeed. But your response to my post makes no sense then. Why would you get on me for not speaking Spanish if this was about what my first language was?

It is about what their first language was.

Texas has a large population whose first language is Spanish. Therefore, it makes sense for Texans to learn Spanish, for ease of communication with fellow citizens.

Toronto has a small population (tiny, really) of citizens whose first language in French (as well as a whole multiplicity of others whose first languages are not English). Therefore, the pressure to learn French is less, because it isn't all that necessary to actually communicate with other citizens.

Citizens should learn, practice and speak the language of the country they reside in. You're taking this multicultural thing to a dishonest extreme.

[Malthus]

I disagree with Parizeau - if someone wants to live their life in rural Quebec, there is no point in forcing them to speak English if they don't want to.

I don't force them to do anything.  I want them to learn the language.  Then, they can see the world for themselves.  Wether or not they use it is up to them.  But it's a necessary tool to get first hand information on Canada and the USA. 

If your complaint is that services are not available to the Francophone minority where they ought to be - that complaint has merit.

Ah, but to get there, we need French speakers...

New Brunswick ought to have official bilingualism, as should Ontario, because in both cases there are substantial Francophone minorities. I disagree with Ford's cutting of such services (as I disagree with almost everything Ford has done).

I have yet to see an Ontarian defending Ford's policies, even from someone who voted for his party...  That's strange

Yet, he will be re-elected.  And the party fighting official bilinguism in New Brunswick will make some gains in the next election.

I interpret "kick in the ass" as force, but other than that I agree - people are better off learning, than not learning. But to my mind, that's a choice of priorities up to them.

I assure you, I did not vote for Ford. 

Why did Ford get elected? Not because he was generally liked. He was elected because the Liberals were caught in too much incompetence and corruption, leading to a vote split between them and the NDP.

[viper37]

In short, it is completely unsurprising that businesses in Quebec City are more ready with English, than those in Toronto are with French. None of which indicates that the francophone minority are "second class citizens". 

I've checked the stat.  It's 1.6% who reported French as their mother tongue.  French speakers is closer to 9%.

French speakers always fight for their basic rights.  Constitutional rights.  Francophobia, Quebec bashing, is alive and well in most english canadian medias.  You can't get to the top echelon of the Federal workforce by being a unilingual french speaker.  But you can get there by being unilingual english speaker.  Top paying jobs in the countries are still for unilingual english speakers, private or public sector.

Look, Quebec didn't agree with the 1982 Constitution, and it was not a problem getting it ratified.  In my opinion, if Canada does not want to be a truly bilingual country, they should stop pretending and change the Constitution.

[Barrister]

You can't get to the top echelon of the Federal workforce by being a unilingual french speaker.  But you can get there by being unilingual english speaker.  Top paying jobs in the countries are still for unilingual english speakers, private or public sector.

You absolutely have to be bilingual in order to reach the top echelon of the Federal civil service.

[viper37]

I interpret "kick in the ass" as force, but other than that I agree - people are better off learning, than not learning. But to my mind, that's a choice of priorities up to them.

Well, might be a different meaning in French... It is a metaphor, and it is intended as a wake up call that you should do something, open yourself to the rest of the world.  I just wish I could find the time to attend some more spanish classes, and I'd like to learn basic german too.

Why did Ford get elected? Not because he was generally liked. He was elected because the Liberals were caught in too much incompetence and corruption, leading to a vote split between them and the NDP.

Yeah, I know, it happens.  It's just strange that not many of his supporters are vocal on the internet, and of those who voted for him, it's like they're ashamed of having done that.

I still think he has the next election clamped.  He doesn't look like the kind of guy that will let it go to the desire of the voters only.

[Malthus]

In short, it is completely unsurprising that businesses in Quebec City are more ready with English, than those in Toronto are with French. None of which indicates that the francophone minority are "second class citizens". 

I've checked the stat.  It's 1.6% who reported French as their mother tongue.  French speakers is closer to 9%.

French speakers always fight for their basic rights.  Constitutional rights.  Francophobia, Quebec bashing, is alive and well in most english canadian medias.  You can't get to the top echelon of the Federal workforce by being a unilingual french speaker.  But you can get there by being unilingual english speaker.  Top paying jobs in the countries are still for unilingual english speakers, private or public sector.

Look, Quebec didn't agree with the 1982 Constitution, and it was not a problem getting it ratified.  In my opinion, if Canada does not want to be a truly bilingual country, they should stop pretending and change the Constitution.

Heh, I believe you have to be bilingual to be a top federal civil servant.

I've got news for you - every province feels that they are unfairly put upon by the others, either exploited, ignored, or made mock of. Ask Alberta about that. 

Toronto is usually referred to in terms of outright hatred - the notion being that it considers itself the centre of the universe, like a pig puffed up to the size of an elephant.

That's just the nature of federations.

[viper37]

You can't get to the top echelon of the Federal workforce by being a unilingual french speaker.  But you can get there by being unilingual english speaker.  Top paying jobs in the countries are still for unilingual english speakers, private or public sector.

You absolutely have to be bilingual in order to reach the top echelon of the Federal civil service.

Only theoritically.  Deputy ministers and such don't have to be bilingual.  Every day to day communication is in english, only official communiques are bilingual.  And for that, you have that nice secretary who just happens to be bilingual...

[viper37]

Toronto is usually referred to in terms of outright hatred - the notion being that it considers itself the centre of the universe, like a pig puffed up to the size of an elephant.

I reserve my hatred for Montreal whom considers itself the centre of the universe

[Malthus]

Yeah, I know, it happens.  It's just strange that not many of his supporters are vocal on the internet, and of those who voted for him, it's like they're ashamed of having done that.

I still think he has the next election clamped.  He doesn't look like the kind of guy that will let it go to the desire of the voters only.

Not that strange - the provincial conservatives take their supporters from the rural and the elderly. Not exactly the biggest users of social media.

He's been a massively unpopular leader. I don't think he'll win again. Last provincial poll I saw had his approval rating at 26% (Quebec's leader was at 59%).   

[Valmy]

You completely misunderstand the 1.3% figure - that's 1.3% who have French as their mother language. Not 1.3% who are able to speak it! 

I did indeed. But your response to my post makes no sense then. Why would you get on me for not speaking Spanish if this was about what my first language was?

It is about what their first language was.

Texas has a large population whose first language is Spanish. Therefore, it makes sense for Texans to learn Spanish, for ease of communication with fellow citizens.

Toronto has a small population (tiny, really) of citizens whose first language in French (as well as a whole multiplicity of others whose first languages are not English). Therefore, the pressure to learn French is less, because it isn't all that necessary to actually communicate with other citizens. 

I got it. But it still makes French speakers second class citizens.

Besides as has been pointed out in this thread living in a place that does have huge numbers of French speakers does not exactly seem to pressure English speakers much in learning French either. They don't have to, which sounds awfully familiar to me as a Texan.

However the whole reason I entered this thread was to shit on Toronto since only 1.3% of their citizens could speak French, but since it is some...um...number higher than that...I should probably just be going...

Hey what is that number anyway? Wait...9.1%? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Language

Well I guess you might find somebody who you can talk to. You are about as likely to find a French speaker in Toronto as you are to find a Spanish speaker in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Granted that is just 9.1% who are fluent. Others might be more basic. But good on those roughly 7.5% who became fluent as a second language. True Canadians.

[Malthus]

I got it. But it still makes French speakers second class citizens.

The fact that most people in Toronto don't have French as their mother language?

You do realize that about half of the population of this city wasn't even born in Canada ... we are a city of immigrants.

If you look at the mother language chart again, you will see that only half have English as their mother language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#Mother_tongue_by_population

Besides as has been pointed out in this thread living in a place that does have huge numbers of French speakers does not exactly seem to pressure English speakers much in learning French either. They don't have to, which sounds awfully familiar to me as a Texan.

However the whole reason I entered this thread was to shit on Toronto since only 1.3% of their citizens could speak French, but since it is some...um...number higher than that...I should probably just be going...

Hey what is that number anyway? Wait...9.1%? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto#Language

Well I guess you might find somebody who you can talk to.

Thing is, in Toronto you aren't shitting on monolingual English speakers too lazy to learn French - you are also shitting on bilingual third-language speakers not learning a third language that few here actually speak. As pointed out above, only half the city's population has English as a first language.

[Valmy]

Thing is, in Toronto you aren't shitting on monolingual English speakers too lazy to learn French - you are also shitting on bilingual third-language speakers not learning a third language that few here actually speak. As pointed out above, only half the city's population has English as a first language.

I was actually shitting on Toronto itself. I just presumed French would be taught to everybody in school since it is one of the official languages of your country, at least enough to be able to know a little bit.

Besides I don't see any information about what the first language is of those people who speak French fluently as a second (or third or fourth) language so I lack sufficient information to know which group I should be shitting on.