Libyan Civil War Megathread

[Berkut]

The idea that the US "presence" in all those examples is what is resulting in the lack of peace and prosperity in those places is idiotic. And the idea that we should validate that idiocy by crawling away is even more idiotic.

The US has bases in England. I guess that means, under that exact same standard, we are "interfering" in the UK as well, right? Because now the bar for "interference" is apparently that low?

[alfred russel]

The idea that the US "presence" in all those examples is what is resulting in the lack of peace and prosperity in those places is idiotic. And the idea that we should validate that idiocy by crawling away is even more idiotic.

The US has bases in England. I guess that means, under that exact same standard, we are "interfering" in the UK as well, right? Because now the bar for "interference" is apparently that low?

The bar for interference isn't low: the only country that is mentioned for is Bahrain (aside from Kuwait), which is a very small country with thousands of US personnel. It isn't a trivial presence.

As for the UK, if they wanted us to leave, then yes I agree that we should go. If we paid QE2 a bunch of money and she said she wanted us to stay, even though there was widespread opposition to us, then yes, I think we would be interfering. Especially if there was the beginning of an uprising there that was put down by a foreign power with funds and equipment we supplied.

[Ancient Demon]

The idea that the US "presence" in all those examples is what is resulting in the lack of peace and prosperity in those places is idiotic. And the idea that we should validate that idiocy by crawling away is even more idiotic.

The US has bases in England. I guess that means, under that exact same standard, we are "interfering" in the UK as well, right? Because now the bar for "interference" is apparently that low?

For most Muslims and Arabs, the bar really is that low. Regardless of whether their greivances are legitimate or not, I don't think it makes much sense to go out of your way to help people who will only hate you more for it.

[Admiral Yi]

Especially if there was the beginning of an uprising there that was put down by a foreign power with funds and equipment we supplied.

Eh, we supply funds to the Saudis?  When did that start?

Also, if I'm not mistaken they buy their APCs from the Brits.

[alfred russel]

Especially if there was the beginning of an uprising there that was put down by a foreign power with funds and equipment we supplied.

Eh, we supply funds to the Saudis?  When did that start?

Also, if I'm not mistaken they buy their APCs from the Brits.

Every time you fill up with gas. 

Maybe I got a bit carried away.

[CountDeMoney]

Especially if there was the beginning of an uprising there that was put down by a foreign power with funds and equipment we supplied.

Eh, we supply funds to the Saudis?  When did that start?

Don't be saucy, Bearnaise.  You know what he means.

[Mr.Penguin]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/19/italy-blocks-investigation-arms-cache

Italian government blocks investigation into missing arms cache

Speculation that consignment of weapons removed from military depot in Mediterranean was secretly supplied to Libya

John Hooper in Rome
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 19 July 2011 18.09 BST

The Italian government has blocked an investigation into the whereabouts of a massive consignment of weapons removed from a military depot in the Mediterranean, amid speculation that the cargo was secretly supplied to Libya.

The weapons were from a consignment that included 30,000 Kalashnikov AK-47 automatic rifles, 32m rounds of ammunition, 5,000 Katyusha rockets, 400 Fagot wire-guided anti-tank missiles and some 11,000 other anti-tank weapons.

They were transferred from a store on the island of Santo Stefano, off the north coast of Sardinia, and transported to the mainland where they were loaded onto army trucks , a source familiar with the operation told the Guardian. But what happened to them after that is a mystery – and now a secret.

The arms were said to have been moved about a month after Silvio Berlusconi radically shifted his stance on Libya. Firmly allied to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi until the outbreak of hostilities, he was initially reluctant to do more than provide base facilities for France and Britain.

But on 26 April, after a telephone conversation with Barack Obama, he announced that Italian planes would join the air strikes on Libya in an attempt to break the deadlock on the ground. His announcement wrong-footed his coalition allies in the Northern League, who have repeatedly deplored Italy's subsequent involvement.

A prosecutor in the town of Tempio Pausania opened an investigation into the destination of the weapons but his inquiries were blocked by an order from the prime minister's office warning that the affair was covered by official secrecy, according to reports in two daily newspapers.

The prime minister's office was unable immediately to confirm or deny the report and the prosecutor's office in Tempio Pausania could not be reached for comment.

The weapons are understood to have been seized on board a ship intercepted by British and Italian warships at the mouth of the Adriatic during the Balkan wars of the 1990s. It emerged in subsequent court proceedings that the 19,400-ton Jadran Express was carrying enough weaponry to equip an army.

The ship, with a cargo of 47 containers supposedly packed with Egyptian cotton, was bound for the Croatian port of Rijeka when it was forced off course in an operation involving the British and Ukrainian intelligence services. Italian judges ordered the arms to be destroyed.

But they were instead moved to a munitions dump on Santo Stefano from where that the arms were reportedly removed between 18 and 20 May.

Not the least mystifying aspect of the operation is that the Italian navy used commercial ferries to transport the weapons.

[jimmy olsen]

Looks like things are continuing to go in the Rebel's favor. I think the war will be over in a couple of months.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/21/libya-middleeast

Libyan rebels in Zlitan capture key government commander

General Abdul Nabih Zayid arrested during rebel advance and questioned over Misrata civilian killings, says opposition


    * Chris Stephen in Misrata
    * guardian.co.uk, Thursday 21 July 2011 14.26 BST
 

Libyan rebels claimed to have made significant advances against Muammar Gaddafi's forces on Thursday amid signs that the regime is feeling the strain of offensives backed by Nato air power.

Rebels in the western city of Misrata said they had captured the chief of operations of government forces in Zlitan on the first day of their attack.

General Abdul Nabih Zayid was caught late on Wednesday after advancing fighters overran his command post at Souk Talat, a small village on the outskirts of Zlitan, opposition commanders said.

"We have him in custody. He is being well looked after," said Mohamed Frefr, in charge of detainees for the rebels. "After three days talking with him, we will hand him to the military prison."

Growing confidence was also expressed by rebel officials from Misrata, who met Nicholas Sarkozy, the French president, and reportedly told him that with help, they could be in Tripoli within days.

In apparent evidence of the toll taken by the continuing fighting, Libyan state TV on Thursday broadcast an appeal for volunteers to join the army. An announcer told viewers there were vacancies in all units, including special forces, and that soldiers would be well paid.

Libyans using the state-run cellphone network said they had been receiving text messages calling on them to fight in the western mountains, the frontline closest to Tripoli. "The clock of action has struck. The time for cleansing has come," one of the messages said.

State TV also showed what it said were new pictures from Zlitan and the oil town of Brega in an apparent attempt to demonstrate that they were still in the regime's hands. In Zlitan, dozens of Gaddafi supporters were shown chanting slogans.

Libyan opposition sources claimed that Abdullah Senussi, Gaddafi's intelligence chief and chief enforcer, had been killed in an attack on regime figures in Tripoli. But there was no confirmation of that.

In Zlitan rebels said the captured general was being interviewed by intelligence officers and had been supplied with insulin because he has diabetes.

A member of the Misrata military council, Hassan Duwa, said the general was captured as rebel units advanced towards Zlitan late on Wednesday. "He was in his house. Eleven guys surrounded the house."

Zayid's capture is regarded as a major feather in the cap for rebel forces. The general gained notoriety among rebels when he helped co-ordinate the deployment of tanks on the streets of Misrata in March, triggering two months of street fighting that saw much of the city wrecked and hundreds killed.

Misrata's war crimes investigators say the general, who was the operations officer at the city garrison before the war, is a "person of interest" for his role in what they say were widespread and systematic attacks against civilians.

Misrata's Human Rights Activists Association, made up of volunteer Libyan lawyers, is assembling evidence it hopes can later be used by the international criminal court. Khalid Alwafi, one of its lawyers, said: "For sure we need to interview him. There are lots of questions that need answers from him."

Rebel units say they are now deploying on the outskirts of Zlitan. The offensive has been launched simultaneously with a push by forces on the eastern front to capture the key oil town of Brega.

Both offensives have been supported by heavy Nato air strikes over the past few days, with alliance aircraft flying over Misrata on Wednesday night. Loud explosions could be heard from behind the frontline. Several rebel commanders in Misrata have told the Guardian in recent days that pro-Gaddafi forces are running short of manpower.

The rebel National Transitional Council, based in Benghazi, is keen to demonstrate that it can break a six-week deadlock and gain the initiative in the runup to Ramadan, which begins on August 1.

The rebels have meanwhile asked France to supply extra weapons to help them overrun Tripoli. Military leaders from Misrata made the request in Paris on Wednesday to French president Nicolas Sarkozy. "With a little bit of help, we will be in Tripoli very soon. Very soon means days," Suleiman Fortia told reporters.

The talks were also attended by the French writer and supporter of the rebels, Bernard-Henri Levy, who said the rebels told Sarkozy that they can seize Tripoli by attacking from Misrata and from rebel-held mountainous territory to the south.

France is playing a leading role in the Nato co-ordinated strikes against Gaddafi's military assets and was the first outside state to formally recognise the rebels' Transitional National Council.

[Berkut]

Two months?

Who has that kind of time! If the rebels cannot wrap this up by next Friday, I say we start bombing them instead.

[Razgovory]

Two months?

Who has that kind of time! If the rebels cannot wrap this up by next Friday, I say we start bombing them instead.

I like this plan.  Or perhaps better yet, we just bomb indiscriminately.  No matter who wins they'll likely be assholes who hate us for some reason, if we bomb them all we won't have to wrack our brains trying to figure out why any one group is shouting "Death to America".  It would at least give them reasons we could understand.  Osama Bin Ladin hated us because we defended his country in a war.  That doesn't really make much sense.  If we kill the next Osama's family, at least we'll understand where he's coming from.  In the long run, it'll make diplomacy easier.  So bombs away.

[Warspite]

Two months?

Who has that kind of time! If the rebels cannot wrap this up by next Friday, I say we start bombing them instead.

You joke, but I think that's a great plan.

"Dear Rebels: we will start bombing your current positions, as well as to their rear, in 48 hours. We should very much like to suggest that, by then, you have advanced your lines somewhat. Sincerely, NATO"

[Ed Anger]

Two months?

Who has that kind of time! If the rebels cannot wrap this up by next Friday, I say we start bombing them instead.

I like this plan.  Or perhaps better yet, we just bomb indiscriminately.  No matter who wins they'll likely be assholes who hate us for some reason, if we bomb them all we won't have to wrack our brains trying to figure out why any one group is shouting "Death to America".  It would at least give them reasons we could understand.  Osama Bin Ladin hated us because we defended his country in a war.  That doesn't really make much sense.  If we kill the next Osama's family, at least we'll understand where he's coming from.  In the long run, it'll make diplomacy easier.  So bombs away.

Then, nuke the moon.

[derspiess]

Looks like things are continuing to go in the Rebel's favor. I think the war will be over in a couple of months.

  Don't ever change, Tim.

[Syt]

The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize!

[Ed Anger]

The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize!

It's a Trap!