The Second Coming

[Jacob]

Good thread

Everyone's staying true to character, but somehow managing to actually discuss something new.

If only I had something to contribute 

[grumbler]

Anyway, out of curiousity Grumbles, did any of your students come up with interpretations that surprised you (in a good way)?

I rather liked the image one student came up with of the "indignant desert birds" being all the failed radical movements (Anarchists, Sparticists, etc) that were irritated because the Fascists (the Beast) were more successful.

[Sheilbh]

Anyway, out of curiousity Grumbles, did any of your students come up with interpretations that surprised you (in a good way)?

I rather liked the image one student came up with of the "indignant desert birds" being all the failed radical movements (Anarchists, Sparticists, etc) that were irritated because the Fascists (the Beast) were more successful.

That's very interesting, especially if you think of the failed 'wild geese' in terms of Irish politics in contrast with the terrifying solidity of fanaticism.  I did some digging and the poem was written in late 1919 and published in 1920 and 1921, so it's a poem written during the Irish civil war.

[grumbler]

That's very interesting, especially if you think of the failed 'wild geese' in terms of Irish politics in contrast with the terrifying solidity of fanaticism.  I did some digging and the poem was written in late 1919 and published in 1920 and 1921, so it's a poem written during the Irish civil war.

If you look particularly at what Yeats deleted, you can see that the poem was originally intended as a more topical piece, which he converted to a more mystical piece.  But, as I noted in my very first post, I wasn't looking at what Yeats intended.  I was using the poem to examine history, as opposed to using history to examine the poem (that lies in the realm of the English department).  One of the great things about this type of poetry is that you can use it as a lens to examine many things, including things that the poet never considered.

[garbon]

and garbon signals that he has missed the last 100+ years of literary criticism and theory.

I don't think the part of teachers forcing their "unique" views on students in the last 100 years was a positive.

However have fun with your attempts to demean and belittle me. It's cute.

[garbon]

All of the MC and essay questions on my tests come from previous AP exams.

Interesting. All of my teachers always mixed it up with their own and then stuff from previous exams. Maybe because they wanted to convince themselves that they weren't just teaching to an exam.

[Cerr]

Anyway, out of curiousity Grumbles, did any of your students come up with interpretations that surprised you (in a good way)?

I rather liked the image one student came up with of the "indignant desert birds" being all the failed radical movements (Anarchists, Sparticists, etc) that were irritated because the Fascists (the Beast) were more successful.

I did some digging and the poem was written in late 1919 and published in 1920 and 1921, so it's a poem written during the Irish civil war.

No that would mean it was written during the Irish War of Independence. The Civil War didn't begin till 1922.

For those interested in Yeats, there's a very good permanent exhibition in Dublin on the life and works of Yeats. You can visit the online version here:
http://www.nli.ie/yeats/

[Cerr]

This complex poem has visionary qualities and was inspired in part by George Yeats' automatic writing. It is primarily an apocalyptic comment on the tide of history, a response to the populist revolutions which were changing and democratising Europe. Commentators have seen references in it to the French and Russian revolutions as well as to the Irish. 'The ceremony of innocence is drowned' is thought to refer to the execution of Marie Antoinette, for instance, while 'the judge nods before his empty dock' describes the empty official courts in Ireland after the First Dáil Éireann issued a decree setting up its own courts in June 1919. The poem contrasts strongly with 'Easter, 1916' where the poet seems to welcome the ideals and revolution; here he sees it as an entirely destructive force.

This paragraph about the poem is from the site I linked to in my last post.

Edit - 'the judge nods before his empty dock' is from an early draft of the poem.

[Cerr]

http://books.google.ie/books?id=bl7B6djkrpUC&pg=PA100

I found this analysis of the early draft of the poem. Haven't had a chance to read it all yet.

[Sheilbh]

I'd disagree with the thought that he welcomes revolution in 'Easter, 1916' he's far more ambivalent than that about it.

[PDH]

 

I thought the poem was about Man's Inhumanity to Tim, and why there needs to be more of it.

[jimmy olsen]

When I took American History AP we had to read "Battle Cry of Freedom" and the guy who wrote the book (Bruce MacPherson?) actually came to discuss it with our class. 

So jealous!

Oh, and it's James McPherson.

[jimmy olsen]

I think that a careful observer in 1920 would be able to see enough into the Bolshevik regime and its modus operandi to have a pretty good idea about its general tenor and possible future development.  Arguably that direction would be easier to foresee than the development of Nazism from the farcicial failure of the Kapp putsch.

Indeed, have you read We by Zamyatin?

[grumbler]

I don't think the part of teachers forcing their "unique" views on students in the last 100 years was a positive.

Wow, talk about a CLASSIC strawman!    Absolutely no one is arguing that "teachers forcing their "unique" views on students in the last 100 years was a positive."  Your statement is a complete nonsequitur.

However have fun with your attempts to demean and belittle me. It's cute.

Hypersensitive much?

[grumbler]

Interesting. All of my teachers always mixed it up with their own and then stuff from previous exams. Maybe because they wanted to convince themselves that they weren't just teaching to an exam.

The strongest argument against the AP system is that it is, indeed, teaching to a test.  I happen to agree.  While I think the writing portion of the AP European History test is quite good, it is only half the exam.  The multiple-choice half is rightfully referred to by many AP Euro teachers as "the trivial pursuit portion of the test."

What is more, the MC portion takes only 50 minutes of the 195-minute test, and yet counts for half of the score.