Boss: I’d rather employ a paedo than a veteran

[Razgovory]

I think I know the problem here.  I think Agelastus read Fahrenheit 451 and completely missed the point.

Seriously though, Fire departments stage demonstrations and educational things every year in every town in America.  Nobody thinks of them as political or an attempt to get money or anything like that.  Typically they had out booklets to grade schoolers that teach kids things about fire safety.  Stuff like having a fire escape, a fire alarm, what to do if your clothes catch on fire etc.  Sometimes they have more general safety things like wear your seat belt or what ever.  Before the fourth of July they talk about the importance of using fireworks responsibly and under parental supervision.  Sometimes they have a demonstration where they set off a firecracker in the hand of a mannequin.  I imagine most board members who grew up in the US remember similar stuff.   It's about as political as a teacher instructing his students on multiplication tables.

yep.

Fireman, cop, EMT, Air force dude from the nearby base, nurse, some chick to talk about teeth, road safety guy with orange vest.

I loved the fire truck. I so wanted to soak Michelle Osborne with the fire hose. I hated her so much.

We would get the Department of Conservation guy and he had live snakes and stuff.  Clearly indoctrinated American youth for the eventual coup by park rangers.

[grumbler]

The world doesn't seem to work that way.. .

On the other hand, my experience is in purchasing, although unfortunately not in a field related to fire service. So, while I as an outsider, based on my own experience of labour and machinery costs, the cost of hiring areas etc. have a first reaction that New York is doing it the expensive way, that may, of course, not be true. But since you are the one who broke a generalisation into specifics, I repeat - do you know of a study we can refer to? 

My experience in education, program cost analysis, and organization would tell me that it is cheaper to conduct the event at a central location, but in the absence of actual data I refrain from drawing conclusions.  Obviously, lack of data does not similarly restrain you, so I will leave it to the readers, if any, to decide how persuasive your unsupported assertion is (and, indeed, what significance it has).

Actually I bow to all the American posters here who cannot wait to post links to stories about their own particular asshat politicians, and the local variety over here who get up to equal shenanigans, for my knowledge. It has nothing to do with NYC in particular at all.

Ah.  So merely another unsupported assertion.  Okay.

And seriously - do you really think that putting on a well reported event like this is purely for the children? Somebody thinks he's getting some good publicity or advantage over it.

How said anything about "purely for the children?"  Obviously somebody thinks there is an advantage to doing this.  Duh!

And again, you demonstrate your selective memory. You are determined to claim I thought the event was "scary" or "terrifying" when those terms were used in reference to a thought paradigm regarding the existence of an authoritarian America - a thought paradigm that I had deliberately stripped out of any relation to the event in my first post. The fact that you are being deliberately obtuse about this is not particularly edifying.

Again, I see no linkage between kids participating in a "Fire safety Week" event and authoritarian America.  If the two are unrelated, then why mention them in the same post?  If we aren't even addressing the Fire Safety Week event any more, then what, exactly, is your point?

So it's put on because somebody felt it was "unnecessary" then? Somebody decided it was neccessary to put on this show, so I completely fail to see what point you think you are making here.

Maybe "necessary" means something different on that side of the pond.  Here, things are "necessary" if they are " 1 a : of an inevitable nature : inescapable  b (1) : logically unavoidable (2) : that cannot be denied without contradiction c :  determined or produced by the previous condition of things d  : compulsory
2 : absolutely needed : required" (Miriam Webster)  Someone could have decided that this was a good use of resources, even without it being "necessary."  In American English, that is.  The British Cambridge Learner's Dictionary online seems to ssay the same thing ("needed in order to achieve a particular result"), but that is just a formal meaning, and perhaps there is an informal one that you are using.  In any case, the use of the term "necessary" seems unnecessary in this context.

Ah. So we are abandoning the fire service or police service (civilian or at most para-military bodies) to discuss the armed forces instead, just so you can try to score a non-existent point. Well, then, who has a National Cemetery for military personnel (even if its purpose has now been expanded slightly) - Britain or the USA? 

So you want to draw a distinction between public servants in the military and the police or fire departments just so you can try to score a non-existent point.  Okay.  What non-existent point is mention of cemeteries supposed to be making?  Britain has cemeteries, as does the US. The US call its Arlington National Cemetery and buries many people there, the UK calls theirs Westminster Abbey and buries fewer people there.  I don't get your point.

And a quick search of the internet proves that American soldiers take part in parades across the country, so I really don't see your issue here. No, they're not quite the same as a Tattoo, but they're equally visible.

US soldiers take place in no events like Trooping the Colour, the Tatoo, or the former Royal Tournament.  You may see US soldiers or Marines (especially their bands) in a parade, but the parade or event is not about the military or some authority figure. It would be held pretty much exactly the same without any US soldiers at all (unless it is being held in a military base, perhaps, but I know of no regular parades on any US military bases).

The bottom line, I guess, is that the "cultural differences" you are referring to do, indeed, exist, but it seems to me that Brits casting stones because the FDNY held a fire safety week "extravaganza" that seems to them to be (taken in complete isolation) "like the practises(sic) of regimes such as North Korea" should look at the glass (Tatoos, Trooping the Colour) of which their own home is constructed.

[Ed Anger]

I think I know the problem here.  I think Agelastus read Fahrenheit 451 and completely missed the point.

Seriously though, Fire departments stage demonstrations and educational things every year in every town in America.  Nobody thinks of them as political or an attempt to get money or anything like that.  Typically they had out booklets to grade schoolers that teach kids things about fire safety.  Stuff like having a fire escape, a fire alarm, what to do if your clothes catch on fire etc.  Sometimes they have more general safety things like wear your seat belt or what ever.  Before the fourth of July they talk about the importance of using fireworks responsibly and under parental supervision.  Sometimes they have a demonstration where they set off a firecracker in the hand of a mannequin.  I imagine most board members who grew up in the US remember similar stuff.   It's about as political as a teacher instructing his students on multiplication tables.

yep.

Fireman, cop, EMT, Air force dude from the nearby base, nurse, some chick to talk about teeth, road safety guy with orange vest.

I loved the fire truck. I so wanted to soak Michelle Osborne with the fire hose. I hated her so much.

We would get the Department of Conservation guy and he had live snakes and stuff.  Clearly indoctrinated American youth for the eventual coup by park rangers.

I forgot about the park dudes. 

[Agelastus]

I think I know the problem here.  I think Agelastus read Fahrenheit 451 and completely missed the point.

Unfortunately for your statement, I have never read Fahrenheit 451. Might have studied it at school, but we ended up doing "Far from the Madding Crowd" instead.

Seriously though, Fire departments stage demonstrations and educational things every year in every town in America.  Nobody thinks of them as political or an attempt to get money or anything like that.  Typically they had out booklets to grade schoolers that teach kids things about fire safety.  Stuff like having a fire escape, a fire alarm, what to do if your clothes catch on fire etc.  Sometimes they have more general safety things like wear your seat belt or what ever.  Before the fourth of July they talk about the importance of using fireworks responsibly and under parental supervision.  Sometimes they have a demonstration where they set off a firecracker in the hand of a mannequin.  I imagine most board members who grew up in the US remember similar stuff.   It's about as political as a teacher instructing his students on multiplication tables.

Fire departments over here stage demonstrations as well, either on their own premises or as a small part of a larger show. They visit schools to teach fire safety. They tend to co-organise fireworks displays to help get safety messages out in the advertising for these events. What they do not do is have a huge event solely dedicated to them in a public square. And in fact, from what Grumbler is saying, this sort of event isn't even that common in the USA. In fact, you own recollections sound a lot more like the things I have just described than this event in New York.

[Razgovory]

I imagine it has to do with the logistics of doing stuff in New York City.

[The Minsky Moment]

. What they do not do is have a huge event solely dedicated to them in a public square.

Rock Center is not really a public square.  It's a private building complex.

FDNY actually rents out space in the complex where it has a fire safety "learning center".

[Agelastus]

My experience in education, program cost analysis, and organization would tell me that it is cheaper to conduct the event at a central location, but in the absence of actual data I refrain from drawing conclusions.  Obviously, lack of data does not similarly restrain you, so I will leave it to the readers, if any, to decide how persuasive your unsupported assertion is (and, indeed, what significance it has).

So in your lexicon "opinion" equals "conclusion". Talk about two sides divided by a common language. And you are no more persuasive with your unsupported counters than I am with my own opinion.

Ah.  So merely another unsupported assertion.  Okay.

You really are in a tiresome mood today, aren't you? OK then, from now on I'll add you to the list of people who somehow still think that politicians are as pure as the driven snow. Or is New York unique and its' politicians have nothing to do with "Fire Safety Week" and the events involved?

How said anything about "purely for the children?"  Obviously somebody thinks there is an advantage to doing this.  Duh!

Ah, I see. So you disagree with me with one sentence and then agree with me the next, while pretending that the two have no relevance to each other at all. Bravo!!!

Again, I see no linkage between kids participating in a "Fire safety Week" event and authoritarian America.  If the two are unrelated, then why mention them in the same post?  If we aren't even addressing the Fire Safety Week event any more, then what, exactly, is your point?

Because I never made a linkage? Again I see you are incapable of understanding simple English. For the last time I explicitly said about certain actions "taken in complete isolation", not the event as a whole, before moving on to musing about an authoritarian America.

But if you are incapable of understanding English, then there really is no point in discussing this further.

Maybe "necessary" means something different on that side of the pond.  Here, things are "necessary" if they are " 1 a : of an inevitable nature : inescapable  b (1) : logically unavoidable (2) : that cannot be denied without contradiction c :  determined or produced by the previous condition of things d  : compulsory
2 : absolutely needed : required" (Miriam Webster)  Someone could have decided that this was a good use of resources, even without it being "necessary."  In American English, that is.  The British Cambridge Learner's Dictionary online seems to ssay the same thing ("needed in order to achieve a particular result"), but that is just a formal meaning, and perhaps there is an informal one that you are using.  In any case, the use of the term "necessary" seems unnecessary in this context.

If they decided it was a good use of resources, then they had decided that it was a necessary use of resources. Your determination to split hairs merely exposes your own limitations with your first language. After all, this if "Fire Safety Week" - I assume you are not now going to argue that this particular event was not intended "to achieve a particular result"?

You really are getting desperate when you resort to raising strawman issues about legitimate word choices, Grumbler.

So you want to draw a distinction between public servants in the military and the police or fire departments just so you can try to score a non-existent point.  Okay.  What non-existent point is mention of cemeteries supposed to be making?  Britain has cemeteries, as does the US. The US call its Arlington National Cemetery and buries many people there, the UK calls theirs Westminster Abbey and buries fewer people there.  I don't get your point.

If you equate Westminster Abbey with Arlington, then you are being surprisingly obtuse. I'd consider the history of their establishment before considering the two as being beasts of the same ilk.

Arlington's relevant in the fact that if, as you say, you do not have tatoos, you do have a national cemetery that was originally, and is still mainly, dedicated to your military dead. This is something we do not have. They're two aspects of the same issue, which is reverence or respect for the military.

US soldiers take place in no events like Trooping the Colour, the Tatoo, or the former Royal Tournament.  You may see US soldiers or Marines (especially their bands) in a parade, but the parade or event is not about the military or some authority figure. It would be held pretty much exactly the same without any US soldiers at all (unless it is being held in a military base, perhaps, but I know of no regular parades on any US military bases).

You don't have Tatoos, we have nothing equivalent to Arlington. They both relate to respect for the military, but as different expressions. The root is the same.

The bottom line, I guess, is that the "cultural differences" you are referring to do, indeed, exist, but it seems to me that Brits casting stones because the FDNY held a fire safety week "extravaganza" that seems to them to be (taken in complete isolation) "like the practises(sic) of regimes such as North Korea" should look at the glass (Tatoos, Trooping the Colour) of which their own home is constructed.

And once again you conflate the event with the actions that I specifically extracted from the event. You seem to be incapable of doing anything else in your odd desire to find fault with me.

Oh well. Five years ago I respected you as a well read and interesting poster, one whose positions I tended to agree with on most issues.

Now I see that you are simply another one schtick wonder. Which is a real shame.

[Agelastus]

. What they do not do is have a huge event solely dedicated to them in a public square.

Rock Center is not really a public square.  It's a private building complex.

FDNY actually rents out space in the complex where it has a fire safety "learning center".

I'm amused that after four or more pages, you are the first person to point out that technically what the Larch saw was not in a public space!

Thanks for the clarification.

[The Minsky Moment]

Far more elaborate and odd event than this -- the annual Steuben Day parade:
http://www.germanparadenyc.org/index.html

takes up all of 5th avenue next to the park for the better part of a day.

[The Minsky Moment]

I'm amused that after four or more pages, you are the first person to point out that technically what the Larch saw was not in a public space!

Thanks for the clarification.

It didn't seem like an important detail but you seemed to attach special importance to it.

[Malthus]

Far more elaborate and odd event than this -- the annual Steuben Day parade:
http://www.germanparadenyc.org/index.html

takes up all of 5th avenue next to the park for the better part of a day.

The Panzer floats were in somewhat poor taste, but not compared to the march of the death camp inmates towards the back of the parade.

[Barrister]

congratulations! 

[grumbler]

So in your lexicon "opinion" equals "conclusion". Talk about two sides divided by a common language. And you are no more persuasive with your unsupported counters than I am with my own opinion. 

Conclusions are opinions, yes.  In American English, that is.  I am not offering any "counters" as is made plan by my statement that I have no conclusion in the absence of data.  Cost is something you brought up, and you have yet to make it relevant to the discussion.

You really are in a tiresome mood today, aren't you? OK then, from now on I'll add you to the list of people who somehow still think that politicians are as pure as the driven snow. Or is New York unique and its' politicians have nothing to do with "Fire Safety Week" and the events involved?

Ah, the attempt to turn this into something about "me" and the strawman.  How tiresome, yet inevitable.

Ah, I see. So you disagree with me with one sentence and then agree with me the next, while pretending that the two have no relevance to each other at all. Bravo!!!

Nope.  I state my own opinions, and reject your attempt at a false dilemma.  This doesn't need to be either (a) "all about the children" or (b) "necessary" to some politician.  I think it could have been done because fire officials saw it as a cost-effective way to get their message out.   

Because I never made a linkage? Again I see you are incapable of understanding simple English. For the last time I explicitly said about certain actions "taken in complete isolation", not the event as a whole, before moving on to musing about an authoritarian America.

I understand simple English well enough.  I just don't understand why you are going on about some FDNY event, particularly when in your country there are events for more "North Korean looking.".

But if you are incapable of understanding English, then there really is no point in discussing this further.

Again the attempt to make this about me! 

If they decided it was a good use of resources, then they had decided that it was a necessary use of resources.

This does not follow at all.  Not in any meaning of the word necessary of which I am aware.

Your determination to split hairs merely exposes your own limitations with your first language. After all, this if "Fire Safety Week" - I assume you are not now going to argue that this particular event was not intended "to achieve a particular result"?

???  This makes no sense.  You have cropped the dictionary meaning to eliminate a key word.  Was that accidental, or is this a mere weasel?

You really are getting desperate when you resort to raising strawman issues about legitimate word choices, Grumbler.

You need to learn the meaning of the term strawman, lest you continue to misuse it.  There is a fine example of one above: "I'll add you to the list of people who somehow still think that politicians are as pure as the driven snow."  See how that places in my mouth an argument that i never made?  That's the very definition of a strawman.

If you equate Westminster Abbey with Arlington, then you are being surprisingly obtuse. I'd consider the history of their establishment before considering the two as being beasts of the same ilk.

"Obtuse" is obviously your word of the say, but I will throw it back in your face:  you are being obtuse to ignore the similarities between the two, and have yet to make your references to cemeteries (no matter their history) relevant to the discussion.

Arlington's relevant in the fact that if, as you say, you do not have tatoos, you do have a national cemetery that was originally, and is still mainly, dedicated to your military dead. This is something we do not have. They're two aspects of the same issue, which is reverence or respect for the military.

So there is no Brookwood Military Cemetery in Brookwood, Surrey, England?  No Aldershot Military Cemetery, in Aldershot Military Town, Hampshire?  I don't see what point you are making here that wouldn't be countered by the mere existence of The Cenotaph in London, frankly, but go ahead and try to make it.

You don't have Tatoos, we have nothing equivalent to Arlington. They both relate to respect for the military, but as different expressions. The root is the same.

Actually, you do have the equivelent of Arlington, but the US still has no equivelent of the tatoos.

And once again you conflate the event with the actions that I specifically extracted from the event. You seem to be incapable of doing anything else in your odd desire to find fault with me.

I still have no idea what your point is.  You "siimple English" is so simply itt doesn't seem to be conveying any coherent message.

Oh well. Five years ago I respected you as a well read and interesting poster, one whose positions I tended to agree with on most issues.

Now I see that you are simply another one schtick wonder. Which is a real shame.

Always finish with a personal attack when you have no logical counter-arguments left to make, eh?   

[DGuller]

Always finish with a personal attack when you have no logical counter-arguments left to make, eh? 

I take it that, since you have stopped countering my logical arguments with your logical arguments, we are done.

Thank God! 

[grumbler]

Thank God! 

Yet another atheist reverts to his childhood religion when faced with the trenches of languish!