Dozens held in Turkish 'coup plot'

[Queequeg]

Question:  Is that for real, or is it similar to the way that you think that Iran is about to go all Western?

There is awkwardness, but it is not even on the scale of the Victorian return to Prudishness, let alone a full-fledged Iranian Religious and Social revolution.  I don't think there is a real possibility of an honest-to-Allah Islamist republic in Turkey, at least not without a long period of social turmoil and conflict, possibly after a Military Coup, which is far more likely.  As Al said, the Turkish Nationalists are far, far worse than most Turkish Muslims, who are skeptical of Christians in one breath and inhale Raki and jerk off to porn with the next. 

This country seems to be in the midst of something of a sexual revolution, though.  I find that hard to square with an actual Islamist revolution.

[Tamas]

One of the most advanced  nations, a nation of great writers, philosophers, musicians etc. became the most effective and evil killingmachine the world has seen, in a single generation (or two).
Knowing that, and Balkanism in general (I sadly know more about the latter than you people will ever do), let me be a bit sceptical about a nation full of ignorant east european/asian muslim-religioned people not being able to make the switch from secural fascism to religious fascism in short order.

And yes, religious fascism<secualr fascism. As I understand, anti-religiousness (and that means anti-muslim) is the cornerstone of the Atatürkian fascism (I guess the guy very correctly IDed that religious zeal would ruin Turkey), and as such, is a perfect slowdown for the spread of mooslimb whackiness. Europe needs secular fascist Turkey.

[Martim Silva]

Hm, so in Turkey you currently can choose between a "democratically" elected islamist government and a secular military.

When Algeria elected the islamists, the military made a coup and no western nation said anything bad. Liberal Democracy at its best.

One of the most advanced nations, a nation of great writers, philosophers, musicians etc. became the most effective and evil killingmachine the world has seen, in a single generation (or two).

The USSR was not Evil. 

[Queequeg]

Tamas, you are ignorant, and I've stopped paying attention to you on this issue.   

[Tamas]

Tamas, you are ignorant, and I've stopped paying attention to you on this issue.   

[Queequeg]

I'm sorry, but I really can't take you seriously after you claim an experience bonus over me thanks to a shared "Balkan mentality" (although Hungary is only occasionally considered part of the Balkans), when I'm living here and have extensively studied Turkish culture and politics.  You are starting to descend in to Sarah Palin Putin-Poking levels. 

[Ed Anger]

We do not accept your claim of Overlord of Turkish knowledge.

[Queequeg]

Frankly, I also think that your experiences with Religion, Islam in particular, let alone Turkish Islam, are extremely limited and are therefore suspect.  How many Muslims have you met in your life?  How much beyond propaganda do you know?  Have you ever lived in a religious society?

[Queequeg]

We do not accept your claim of Overlord of Turkish knowledge.

I am merely crown regent in Tuna's absence, and have no further ambition on that front. 

[Martinus]

Istanbul to Greece. :a:

At least Turkey is not bankrupt.

[Faeelin]

One of the most advanced  nations, a nation of great writers, philosophers, musicians etc. became the most effective and evil killingmachine the world has seen, in a single generation (or two).

But enough about how America's rise to hegemony over the bones of Europe.

[PDH]

The Turkish military has a long history of democratic coups d'etat.

[Tamas]

Well, I have to work with the sources I got.

My stance on this formed when the educated westerners of this forum ejaculated in joy during the various liberalization of religious symbol-wearing reforms of the turkish government. The idea, that the people (any people) would elect a religious party, because they want secular liberal reforms is kinda crazy. To make a Martinus-y over-the-top example, you don't vote Christian Democrat if you want to have pot legalized.

It's just that... in a vast nation ripe with hidden and forced-down conflicts and (I guess) rural population, I can't envision a dominating secular middle class. The lack of that has been the bane of everything east of western europe, since who knows when. Now, it is a very good argument that they dont have much chance to grow if they cant say a sentence without including the desire to suck Atatürk's cock in it. But, adhering to religious populism will not help either. Surely not on the long run.

With all that, I am viewing the issue from the point of someone not living in Turkey, but affected by what kind of shit hits the fan there. For non-turkish europeans, a secular dictatorship is a much safer bet than the wild roll of a dice, which the unleashing of the non-seculars would be.

[Razgovory]

Turkey didn't side with the Nazis.  And it wasn't a soviet puppet state.  That's 2 points for Turkey over Hungary.

[Berkut]

Turkey didn't side with the Nazis.  And it wasn't a soviet puppet state.  That's 2 points for Turkey over Hungary.

The Raz makes a pretty compelling point.