Could you speak in your homeland if you went back to 1300AD?

Started by Martim Silva, December 14, 2009, 04:20:57 PM

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Valmy

Quote from: Syt on December 14, 2009, 04:52:23 PM
The (reconstructed and rather fictional) version of medieval German is relatively tough in its grammar and vocabulary. Many false friends (as words shifted in meaning) and weird syntax/turn of phrase.

Of course, a unified German language or High German didn't emerge till 18th/19th century, so it would also strongly depend on where in Germany you went back in time.

What if you woke up tommorow to find yourself in 1300 Vienna?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Martim Silva

Quote from: Zanza on December 14, 2009, 04:50:32 PM
I can't really read medieval German texts (although occasionally I can understand parts), so I assume I would have a hard to time to communicate with people back then. German was not really a unified language by 1300.

Let's try with the text of a song that made the runs in the Holy Roman Empire at the time. It's bt Walther von der Vogelwiede, the most famous German musikant of the time:

    Kristen juden und die heiden
    jehent daz dis ir erbe sî
    got müesse ez ze rehte scheiden

    dur die sîne namen drî
    al diu werlt diu strîtet her
    wir sîn an der rehten ger.
    reht ist daz er uns gewer


Would you hear it well?

Syt

Quote from: Valmy on December 14, 2009, 04:55:01 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 14, 2009, 04:52:23 PM
The (reconstructed and rather fictional) version of medieval German is relatively tough in its grammar and vocabulary. Many false friends (as words shifted in meaning) and weird syntax/turn of phrase.

Of course, a unified German language or High German didn't emerge till 18th/19th century, so it would also strongly depend on where in Germany you went back in time.

What if you woke up tommorow to find yourself in 1300 Vienna?

Actually a lot of medieval texts and the "language" reconstructed from them were written down in the courts in Southern Germany and Austria, so I might be able to understand large parts. North German, where the low German is somewhere between Dutch, English, Scandi and German would probably be harder for me.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Martim Silva

#33
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2009, 04:52:18 PM
I am doubleplusgoodcold and would rather have a coat?

I recognize leif from some written work I've read.

You understood everything wonderfully, except "chillingcold", which means "chilling cold"  :lol:

(i.e. "I am chilling cold, and would rather have a coat")

So, pronounciation is key here. Read Medieval texts aloud before trying to decypher them to get the feeling of what you'd hear - this is valid for all European regions.

Sheilbh

Quote from: Valmy on December 14, 2009, 04:25:19 PM
I mean especially as London English and Chester English was probably dramatically different.  Regional dialects probably ruled supreme back in those days.
Hugely different.  I mean the Pearl poet (of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight fame) was probably from that sort of area and his is a different language from Chaucer's.

QuoteHow does one prove that the pronounciations are the same?
With Middle English a lot of it has been worked out from metre and rhyme and so on.  Even until the late 18th century a common rhyme was 'love' and 'prove' which means people either said 'looove' or 'pruv' :mellow:

Plus what Valmy says :)

I can understand Chaucer and was taught how to read it, Anglo-Saxon and the Pearl poet aloud so given a bit of time I think I could be okay.
Let's bomb Russia!

Syt

Quote from: Martim Silva on December 14, 2009, 04:55:54 PM
    Kristen juden und die heiden
    jehent daz dis ir erbe sî
    got müesse ez ze rehte scheiden

    dur die sîne namen drî
    al diu werlt diu strîtet her
    wir sîn an der rehten ger.
    reht ist daz er uns gewer


Haven't translated any medieval text in three or four years, so let's see ...

Christians, Jews and Heathens,
claim that this is their heritage
God would have to decide the rightful claim.

By his three names
all the world (violently) disagrees that
We are in our right.
It's right that He supports us.



And that's a text without weird vocabulary that I would have to look up. ;)
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Zanza

When I read the translation, I can match the words between the Vogelweide song and modern German. But some are just completely different ("jehent" for example).

crazy canuck

English is a bastard language so it is not so difficult to understand why it has changed so much over time while others have not.

However, I find it hard to believe that other languages havent also changed over time.  For example I often heard that the French spoken in Quebec is archaic compared to the French spoken in France as the continental French changed with other influences that did not affect the provincial French of Quebec.

Martim Silva

Quote from: Syt on December 14, 2009, 05:02:59 PM
Haven't translated any medieval text in three or four years, so let's see ...

Christians, Jews and Heathens,
claim that this is their heritage
God would have to decide the rightful claim.

By his three names
all the world (violently) disagrees that
We are in our right.
It's right that He supports us.

And that's a text without weird vocabulary that I would have to look up. ;)


You have successfully understood what would be sung to you  :)

The only issue would not be one of understanding the language, but of Christian expressions - the three names was used in a different way, as in "by Right" - in this case, God would decide the claims, by His three names.

(It is certain that we would all have to ajust to somewhat different expressions. And some of ours would seem odd to the locals, but we'd ajust fairly quickly)

Syt

Quote from: Zanza on December 14, 2009, 05:09:54 PM
When I read the translation, I can match the words between the Vogelweide song and modern German. But some are just completely different ("jehent" for example).

I wasnt too bad with mine (haven't read/heard Palästinalied in a while). The other stanzas are harder IMO.
http://www.fabelnundanderes.at/palaestinalied.htm
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Sheilbh

Quote from: crazy canuck on December 14, 2009, 05:10:26 PM
However, I find it hard to believe that other languages havent also changed over time.  For example I often heard that the French spoken in Quebec is archaic compared to the French spoken in France as the continental French changed with other influences that did not affect the provincial French of Quebec.
Especially given that in English one of the biggest causes of change was the rediscovery and translation of Latin and Greek texts.  It caused huge problems because they simply didn't have words that accurately matched the Latin or the Greek.  Before the Renaissance they used French words or similar English words, afterwards they used Latinate or Greciate (don't know if that's a word) words which is a huge source in our language.

I imagine other languages faced similar problems.  Because French and Spanish are Romance languages it was perhaps easier to overcome but surely something similar happened in Dutch and German?
Let's bomb Russia!

Richard Hakluyt

Chaucer's English is pretty straightforward, more like an English dialect than anything else; a couple of weeks and the adjustment would be made.

On the other hand.........Gawain and the Green Knight would involve a lot more work to understand, and the stuff from earlier centuries looks like a foreign language.....

Meanwhile Shakespeare is more or less modern English.


alfred russel

Quote from: Valmy on December 14, 2009, 04:52:21 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 14, 2009, 04:44:32 PM
Even if they spoke perfect modern english, I'd probably be to disgusted by the bad breath, messed up teeth from people with no braces, horrible BO, hairy women legs, etc. to communicate.

The people in 1300 actually looked really good, it was only later that century that Small Pox scars became fashionable.

Remember: no sugar to rot their teeth and the population was overwhelmingly under 21 so even without shaving most of the women would be low on body hair :P

I am sceptical.
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Richard Hakluyt

The decades before the Black Death were a bit dismal economically; 1400 might be a better date for the horny time traveller to encounter properly nourished women  :lol:

Martinus

I guess it would depend on the social class. Most towns and cities in that era in Poland were being settled by Germans, so they would probably speak some form of old German (probably from Saxony). Otoh, the nobles and peasants spoke old Polish, which I could understand.