Sensitive Documents Lifted from Hadley Climate Center

[Warspite]

I guess it is funny sometimes to see how some people react to their religious views being questioned

I think it's funny when people get confused about what religion is and what it is not.

I call 'em as I sees 'em.  Environmentalism (Global Warming in particular) has become a religion for many people these days.

Agreed, and that's why I've become very wary and suspect at the extreme views on climate change, greening, all the whole movement. We all want greener, cleaner, but some of the groups pushing things seem to have it as their ideology, way of life, hatred of the way things are now, want everyone to radically change. And follow the money trail - some groups or industries stand to make a lot of money on the climate change industry.

We'll see where this goes. At least some in Congress are calling for an investigation.

I suppose it's easier to dismiss a view when you paint all its followers as extremists. 

[The Larch]

And follow the money trail - some groups or industries stand to make a lot of money on the climate change industry.

Because, of course, there's no money at all to be made by letting industries pollute freely, right?

Care to say which elements form this "climate change industry" that you talk about?

[Berkut]

I love the argument that there is this giant conspiracy of people who all universally hate Western culture and want to destroy it, and they ahve chosen this as the best means of doing so.

The only thing this data shows is that science is messy, and done by human beings. None of it proves anything beyond that.

Oh noes, "casual" references to violence - because none of us have ever joked around about the desire to kick someone in the nuts or something! Gosh no!

This is *exactly* like creationism - the attempts to discredit science by pointing out that the process isn't perfect, or even fails at times, all without any actual credible counter-hypothesis. This amounts to "Hey, some scientists said they wanted to punch me in the face, therefore the entire body of data and rigorous analysis is bunk! Fer sure! Praise Jaysus!"

[Berkut]

I guess it is funny sometimes to see how some people react to their religious views being questioned

Pot.Kettle.Black.

[Berkut]

Yeah well who would not like cleaner energy sources, it's not like I am not in shock and awe over the fact that people actually manage to live in Budapest everytime I go there and smell around.

But the religious craze over global warming has a very real danger of causing overregulation, which in turn causes economical slowdown, which in turn results in tech research slowdown, which is of course in turn helps the current energy sources stick around for longer. All the while the non-christian non-guilt-oriented major players catching up to the first world.

And no, regulation does not help the research of cleaner energy. Just that together with the religious zeal, it helps the selling of otherwise totally uncompetitive energy sources like solar collectors and the like. Give me my nuclear power plants, and give me cold fusion.

Tamas, this is crap. There is nothing religious about global warming. Do you ahve some kind of evidence or something to show that the entirety of the scientific community has all somehow been afflicted with religious mania, and decided to fabricate massive amounts of data to create a completely fictitous theory to explain things that are not actually happening, all in perfect harmony...to what end, exactly?

What are they hoping to gain from this vast conspiracy?

I would compare this conspiracy claim to the Protocols of Zion, but actually, THAT is a lot more believable, since it at least postulated a conspiracy among some small set of secret people - while your "religious mania" theory demands that we believe in a much larger, more sweeping, and more importantly, amazingly effective lie to decieve the entire world for absolutely no discernible reason.

[KRonn]

I guess it is funny sometimes to see how some people react to their religious views being questioned

I think it's funny when people get confused about what religion is and what it is not.

I call 'em as I sees 'em.  Environmentalism (Global Warming in particular) has become a religion for many people these days.

Agreed, and that's why I've become very wary and suspect at the extreme views on climate change, greening, all the whole movement. We all want greener, cleaner, but some of the groups pushing things seem to have it as their ideology, way of life, hatred of the way things are now, want everyone to radically change. And follow the money trail - some groups or industries stand to make a lot of money on the climate change industry.

We'll see where this goes. At least some in Congress are calling for an investigation.

I suppose it's easier to dismiss a view when you paint all its followers as extremists. 

Nope, I said some of the groups and spokespersons. As I said, we all want cleaner greener, but most of us aren't so wrapped up or fanatical and are more even tempered in dealing with the issue. 

[KRonn]

And follow the money trail - some groups or industries stand to make a lot of money on the climate change industry.

Because, of course, there's no money at all to be made by letting industries pollute freely, right?

Care to say which elements form this "climate change industry" that you talk about?

Sheesh, look around a bit I guess! Al Gore stands to make lots of money, already has. General Electric is in the midst of things because they're looking to make money of new ideas, technology, some probably coming out of Cap and Trade, which GE supports.

[Berkut]

Nope, I said some of the groups and spokespersons. As I said, we all want cleaner greener, but most of us aren't so wrapped up or fanatical and are more even tempered in dealing with the issue. 

While there are certainly some fanatics out there, they exist on both sides of the issue, of course. So why not simply ignore them? They don't really matter.

What strikes me as "fanatic" though is the attempt to paint the "other guy" as a whole as some kind of extremist, and makes me think the person doing so is in the "fanatic" camp themselves, since they clearly are not interested in actual discussion - after all, you cannot have a reasonable discussion with religious fanatics, can you?

[Warspite]

Good lord, three posts in a row from Berkut that had me nodding. The cosmic order must be balancing itself out in some terrible ways somewhere else.

[KRonn]

Didn't we just have a thread about the UK courts determining that climate change proponents or groups, could be classified as a religion?   

[Berkut]

And follow the money trail - some groups or industries stand to make a lot of money on the climate change industry.

Because, of course, there's no money at all to be made by letting industries pollute freely, right?

Care to say which elements form this "climate change industry" that you talk about?

Sheesh, look around a bit I guess! Al Gore stands to make lots of money, already has. General Electric is in the midst of things because they're looking to make money of new ideas, technology, some probably coming out of Cap and Trade, which GE supports.

So your claim is the Al Gore, for example, is involved in the GW debate because he is going to make a bunch of money from it, but only if he can convince people that GW is happening. Is that right?

Do you know how the Gore family became stinking rich?

[KRonn]

Nope, I said some of the groups and spokespersons. As I said, we all want cleaner greener, but most of us aren't so wrapped up or fanatical and are more even tempered in dealing with the issue. 

While there are certainly some fanatics out there, they exist on both sides of the issue, of course. So why not simply ignore them? They don't really matter.

What strikes me as "fanatic" though is the attempt to paint the "other guy" as a whole as some kind of extremist, and makes me think the person doing so is in the "fanatic" camp themselves, since they clearly are not interested in actual discussion - after all, you cannot have a reasonable discussion with religious fanatics, can you?

I honestly feel that we've been pushing the whole debate of how we're destroying the planet too far, and pursuing policies based on that too far.

[Berkut]

Didn't we just have a thread about the UK courts determining that climate change proponents or groups, could be classified as a religion?  

Fuck, you got us. You are right. The entire thing is bunk.

Fucking UK courts - I knew they would be the downfall of our Grand Plan to become rich by convincing the West to control pollution.

Foiled again!

[Berkut]

Nope, I said some of the groups and spokespersons. As I said, we all want cleaner greener, but most of us aren't so wrapped up or fanatical and are more even tempered in dealing with the issue. 

While there are certainly some fanatics out there, they exist on both sides of the issue, of course. So why not simply ignore them? They don't really matter.

What strikes me as "fanatic" though is the attempt to paint the "other guy" as a whole as some kind of extremist, and makes me think the person doing so is in the "fanatic" camp themselves, since they clearly are not interested in actual discussion - after all, you cannot have a reasonable discussion with religious fanatics, can you?

I honestly feel that we've been pushing the whole debate of how we're destroying the planet too far, and pursuing policies based on that too far.

How so? Who is "we"?

How does casting those who don't agree with you as religious fanatics helping your argument that we should do less about global climate change?

[Malthus]

No doubt some scientists pursue their favourite theories with an un-scientific enthusiasm - some will even commit concious fraud, just to bolster their pet theories, or to get grant money, tenure or other honours and perks. People are fallible, self-interested, invested in their projects, have social and political axes to grind, etc.

The beauty of science is that it "works" anyway, because ultimately it's not a few individuals, but a process. The truth will out, eventually, no matter what any person or sets of persons does.